A New Era for Equestrian Sport? Inside the UK's First Bridleless Competition

[00:00:00] Speaker A: Foreign. Welcome to the Sharp Ride podcast. [00:00:13] Speaker B: Sponsored. [00:00:13] Speaker A: Brought to you. Basically kept going by the wonderful Charles Owen. If you are listening to this podcast and you've not followed us, liked and shared it, why not sort yourselves out, have a word with yourself, take yourself to one side, let people know about us. People. Don't just send me a message on Instagram saying how much you love it. Share this podcast. We've got Benji today and we've got a guest. We've got no Simon. Ben, we're going to introduce our guests in a minute. We've got no Simon because he is sunning himself in Corfu. [00:00:43] Speaker C: That's lovely. He deserves it after badminton. Our siame, he should have taken us with them. [00:00:49] Speaker A: He's on a Hindu. [00:00:52] Speaker C: He's on a. Of course he is. [00:00:55] Speaker A: Of course he is. He's on a hen do. Oh, God, love him. I hope he's getting some, like, pink tutu action. I really do. But we have a guest and I would love to chat to you and see how you are, Ben, but I have a feeling we've got a lot to get through in the next hour because our guest has shot to celebrity stardom in the last. I would say. Am I right in saying about month. We have had so less than a month. [00:01:20] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:01:21] Speaker A: We've had so many messages asking for this guest to be on. She started the first. I'm guessing it's the first official in. In the UK alone. I'm sure you will correct me on that. Bitless bridal this competition. Mia, welcome to the podcast. Thank you so much. I know you are now the busiest human on earth, so thank you for coming on. [00:01:43] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:01:44] Speaker B: Oh, thank you so much, Jenny. And like, it means so much as well, because I've already said it, but I grew up watching you present and I always wanted to meet you, like as a young girl. I've always wanted to meet you. So I grew up on horse and country tv. That was my life and here we are today. So, yeah, thank you guys so much and thank you, Ben as well, for having me on your amazing podcast. [00:02:07] Speaker A: That's very kind of you. Thank you very much. And I'm sorry, I probably would be nothing but a disappointment, but it is very nice for someone to open saying they've wanted to meet me, not Ben. So up your ass, Ben. Thank you very much. [00:02:17] Speaker B: Yeah, we know each other, so it is fine. [00:02:22] Speaker C: I think if you, if you do liberty in this country, you. We're, well, a quite a small circle. Mia Rodley, founder of the Heart of Horsemanship Founder of the British Bridal Less Competition. I think it's absolutely phenomenal to have watched your journey from where you were with just Solo and Spirit to where you are now is phenomenal. And then. [00:02:45] Speaker A: Can I just interject? Ben is Solo and spirit horses. She just. She didn't fly Solo with lots of spirit. I'm guessing they were kind of like your Ben's Malik and Mojo. [00:02:59] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, almost. Yeah, almost to the T. Yeah. [00:03:03] Speaker A: So. [00:03:04] Speaker B: So Solo was my first horse. He was an absolute cheeky monkey and is really similar to Malik in personality. And Spirit was my second proper horse, I'll say, in inverted commas and. Yeah, and he's still my superboy and love him and love them both and adore them both dearly. But Solo's old and retired now and spirit's getting a little bit creaky. So, yeah, it's crazy how time flies. But, yeah, I'm. It has been a really, really, really amazing journey and it's been like. [00:03:39] Speaker A: I've. [00:03:40] Speaker B: I've been saying to Jenny, like, it's just insane how this has blown up and I was never expecting it to blow up in the way it has. Is so exciting and I'm totally here for it. But I thought I was busy already and now this is like another level of mental busy. So I've had like at least two phone calls, interviews, podcasts a day almost since the day that it's happened now. So it's just, you know, worldwide as well. Like it's just blown up. I've had phone calls from numerous different countries now and this is like global scale. So it's just like, oh, my God. Okay, so, yeah, super exciting. It's broken the equestrian Internet. [00:04:23] Speaker C: Yeah. So was it. Was this a planned know. Had you planned out the stages, planned to go out, compete in the Necro and then get the publicity from that and use that and go off the back of that to create the competition. Or was it just happenstance? [00:04:40] Speaker B: What do you think? It was entirely. [00:04:45] Speaker A: I was like, la, la, la. [00:04:46] Speaker B: I would like to compete Bridalous. Let's see if some venues will have me only two out of like the, you know, nearly 100, probably I emailed would allow it. And that's because I knew one of the show organisers because I helped her with her Grand Prix dressage horse a few years ago. So she knew me, Kerry Bishop at Western Lawns. Big up, Kerry, because she let me do it. And our local riding club down the road here, the Equifun Club as well at Plumpton and the first time I did it at Plumpton, it caught everyone's attention almost immediately and an article was [00:05:23] Speaker A: put out and this. Unaffiliated. [00:05:25] Speaker B: Yeah, unaffiliated. [00:05:26] Speaker A: Sorry, mia, are these unaffiliated or British dressage competitions unaffiliated? [00:05:30] Speaker B: Because bd, you know, it's against BD rules. So I can't compete on the BD bridal list. [00:05:36] Speaker A: I just didn't want suddenly people bombarding British dressage venues going, oh, Mia competed in dressage at this venue. I was. [00:05:44] Speaker B: I'm gonna also put my hand up and say, I've been riding bridalists for 16 years and I'm really, really safety first with all my training as well. So, yeah, it's like, I know and like boogie my horse. I and compete on. I've had from a weanling. His first ride was bareback and Bridal us on the beach, you know, and then he was started. Bridal. Yeah, I know, it was good fun. [00:06:09] Speaker A: We filmed it. [00:06:10] Speaker B: I had a few of my closest friends there on the day as well. It was like this gorgeous, magical, perfect day and it couldn't have been more perfect in every way. So that was like another dream lived. So, yeah, went out. [00:06:21] Speaker A: This is how awful I am. When you were saying that, when you said we filmed it and we had a instead of friends, I thought you were going to say G and T's, because that is the only way I would start a horse. From my days of learning and riding and producing horses in Ireland, there was many a time where I was in a field and I jumped on a horse, bridle less and saddle less. But it was definitely after being in the pub, it certainly wasn't. Oh, we're just going to get on a horse and plan this for the first time. [00:06:49] Speaker C: Can I just say, because Bridalist is becoming massive and I know we're going to hit all of these topics. If you feel like you need to drink gin to have the courage to take your horse's bridle off, it's not time. [00:07:01] Speaker A: Yes, agreed. [00:07:03] Speaker B: It's not your time. Yeah. So then Kerry said I could compete at Western Norns Unaffiliated. So I drove all the way up because we're right down in the south now. We're right behind Hickstead, actually. So for all our horsey listeners. [00:07:17] Speaker C: Crikey. [00:07:18] Speaker B: And drove up to Western Lawns, dragged my best friend Serena along with me and was like, you're gonna come ride some Bridal dressage with me too. Kerry says, yes, let's do it. And we both competed in prelim and then I did a novice and I think we scored pretty highly. I think both of us were like 65, 69% and we were against Bridal's people, you know, and in a complete normal competition setup. So that kind of blew up again. And every time we did it, it kind of got bigger and bigger. [00:07:55] Speaker A: Did you pre warn the judges you were coming or did you just ride at them without a bridle? Because I can just imagine the judges sat in the car thinking they've forgotten some tack. They're coming at me. Are they gonna stop? Did you have to? [00:08:10] Speaker B: The judges like stopped us. They literally stopped us and got out the car and had a little conversation with us and then were like cool, go for it. And like the comments we've had have all been just gorgeous. Lovely complimentary comments as well. So. Yeah, and that all kind of spawned from. Because as Ben knows, I don't really actually enjoy competition very much. I much prefer the show scene because if the horse doesn't feel like it, I can change it and in a competition I can't. So I have to canter at sea whether my horse feels ready. Even though I'd love another half 20 meter circle to get a little bit more bend and relaxation before I ask for canter. You have to do it there and then. And that's something I really have struggled with. I'm not super precise really. Like I'm quite a fluid person with my horse training. You know that to an element you have to be precise and thorough. But equally competition is. Is not my style. And it all came from experimenting with some bridal self carriage on the neck rope with boogie. And that's kind of been my own path and journey for the last couple of years. I just kind of had seen so many videos of people having their horses in self carriage with no bridles and was like, how the hell do they do that? And so I just went about trying it and it was so slow and incremental. I cannot tell you like how painstakingly boring it was. But once your horse really understands it is then truly about developing their own self carriage. Because my biggest lesson has been how much we ask for with reins when they're actually not physically ready to do it. Because when there's no reins, if the horse is like flipping heck, I need to stretch. And this is too hard. They do. You can't stop it. Like they're, they're like, I can't, I have to stretch. So then you go, okay, like I guess you're not strong enough yet to hold that maneuver that I'm asking for in that frame and self carriage. So you have to go back a step. That's all you're going to get for the day, and then progress forwards. And once I kind of worked out the process again, I kind of got Serena in and was like, right, you need to learn this with Silas. So he was kind of the, the next horse we developed into some bridal self carriage. And don't get me wrong, we're only scratching the surface. We don't even know what we're doing. We've just played with it and got some nice results. And then I had, you know, I teach a clinic at home every month. We have three day clinics once a month I have a group of really regular high level students. So we started going about teaching them and their horses and they started getting the results. So it's like, okay, this works, you know, and every shape and size and breed of horse can do it. Every rider, whether they work full time, whether they're, you know, lucky enough to not have to work but have their horses, you know, any rider and any shape or size of horse can literally do this. So that was then really inspiring to be like, okay, like this self carriage stuff works. So once Boogie could kind of hold it in a warp truck canter, I was like, okay, let's go competing and see, and see if I can actually do it in a competition setting and not just floating around my arena wherever I feel like it, you know. So that's where it all came from. [00:11:46] Speaker C: Do you think that having done the demonstrations and performances with the horses and with Serena with her horse as well, gave you the courage to say, okay, let's put on dressage whites and actually take this, you know, take this on the road. Because that's what I think, like from, from having watched it, it is like the perfect storm. Like your passion for the Bridalist collection, the experience the horses had so you could prove to the venues, like, it's like the horse world has been waiting for someone across, for someone to come across to sort of be the breakthrough that everyone's been looking for. And it's all worked perfectly, that it's, it's plumbing you, which is fantastic. [00:12:28] Speaker B: Well, and it's cool. Like I know I'm a little bit woo woo. And I really believe in everything happens for a reason. And the universe is everything, you know, lines up for you. As you say, it's like just tick, tick, tick, tick, like Boogie and Sea lass. We know 100% are super safe. Like, you know what it's like at shows, Ben. You get like a marching bango pass, and then you've got the fun fair next to you, and then a load of alpacas get led past. And you know those horses are going to stay connected with you no matter what. And really, that falls down to their Liberty foundation, like, first and foremost is that I know he looks to me in those moments where he's like, oh, I'm not sure what's going on. This is a little bit scary. What do I do? And I go, don't worry, we got it. We're fine. And that same level of mental connection, attention, focus, gravity, whatever you want to call it, you can carry on into the saddle so easily. And I know, Ben, we're like, singing from the same hymn sheet here with this, but it's literally so easy to just go, okay, we've got it on the ground. Take it under saddle. You literally go from. I actually draw it on the whiteboard when people are like, yes, but how do I do it under saddle? And I draw a little stick horse, and I draw a little stick human, and I literally put the stick human on the horse from next to them, and that's that. [00:13:54] Speaker A: So basically, you're so. And this is the thing I think people haven't realized, maybe if they're just. They've just tuned into your journey Mirror is you are a Liberty performer. You train the horses on the ground. You haven't just jumped on a horse bridle and gone, I'm going to. Or you're not a rider who's suddenly taken off their bridle. You are a performer. You do it all on the ground. You are basically a female. A female Ben. So I think that's where a lot of people are like, so, like, oh, my God, I can. I want to do this. But how do I take my bridal off? You've done the work on the floor. [00:14:25] Speaker B: Yeah. Yes. [00:14:26] Speaker A: And that's how you can transfer it to it. [00:14:29] Speaker B: Exactly. And I've been riding Bridler since I was 13 years old. You know, I had my first ponies, and I've been big in the natural horsemanship world for years. And, you know, Bridalist riding is nothing new to me. But what I found was that they either go hollow and fall in on the inside shoulder, and they kind of go around with their heads up, or they travel in a stretch all the time. And that's okay, maybe slightly better biomechanically, but equally, neither is really correct. And I was like, how the hell do I get this thing, this elusive self carriage with. With no bridle? So that's what I went about trying to work out. And here we are. So we have a number of students now. Like on the day, we had 20 over 20 competitors, so I think there are 23 in total. Most people brought a couple of horses or were doing multiple classes and 15 of those were my students. But obviously I can okay each person and go, right, you're ready, you're safe enough to do this. [00:15:37] Speaker C: So can I stop you there and just say. Because I feel like we're bleeding into the competition and I know it's been all over social media. Let's start. So we've got a bit of MIA backstory now. Let's have a bit of competition. Backstory, backstory. How do you decide what competition you're going to do? How do you come up with the rules? [00:15:59] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:16:01] Speaker B: So there is actually a bridalist competition in Poland. And me, Sarah and Serena were sat in a yurt at the beach on one of my beach clinics. And I literally woke up one morning and was like, I want to compete bridalist. Like, I literally woke up, sat up, Sarah and Serena were still asleep and I was like, I want to compete bridal us. And they were there when this idea was born. And I was then like, oh, I've seen that competition in Poland. Me and Serena could go to Poland. Like, we've got an EU certified lorry. Let's do it. Go. We can do it. We'll go to Poland and compete. And I started trying to find, like the information on it and it's actually really hard. There isn't much information on it. I've heard from other people now, like in the last weeks that it's notoriously difficult to enter. And then we worked out costings and we were like, flip, this is going to cost so much money to go to Poland to compete probably in two low level classes and then leave again. So I was like, let's just do one ourselves. Let's just put one on. Like, there's enough students. We can, we can do this. And then the idea kind of sat and didn't do anything. And it was only when me and Serena were in Africa together for two weeks and for about four hours of the day, you're not doing anything, you're just lounging. And I'm not much of a lounger, so I was like journaling, drawing. I didn't bring a book, which was silly. And then all these ideas came flooding out about the Bridalist competition. And I've got all the original scribbles of, like how it was going to work, which classes we were going to do, just all in this little book along with drawings of zebra and elephants and, you know, journaling about our day. And I was bouncing all these ideas off of Serena and I was like, let's do it. And so that was January this year, where I went, all right, we're going to do it, let's do it. So first had to find a venue that would allow us. And luckily Merestwood is kind of local to us and I've got a good relationship with them. They know we're safe. Crazy. They know we're not dangerous. And then the next thing was insurance because who the hell is going to insure that? So luckily I have a great friend who worked for Howden and she put in a very good word and I put in some very thorough risk assessments and how I was going to structure and plan the day to be safe. And they said, okay, yeah, we'll insure it. And I was like, cool, let's do it. So that was how the competition came to be. And then I was like, wouldn't it be cool to just run it like a normal competition as similarly as we could just to a straight up normal competition? So we did and, you know, a few little things we changed to set horses and riders up for success. So we gave everyone two minutes of arena familiarization time before they had to take their bridle off to start their class, just to ensure that the horses were really settled in that environment. And that worked really well. We, you know, no one could take their bridle off until the other horse had left. There was only one horse bridle us at a time. I was in the warm up arena okaying everyone to say, okay, yeah, you and your horse are ready. I can see that your horse is calm, connected and confident enough to go in and do it. [00:19:36] Speaker C: So, yeah, so sorry, I don't mean to interrupt. So does that mean were people bridal us in the collecting ring or was that not an option? [00:19:45] Speaker B: No, it wasn't an option. [00:19:47] Speaker A: Like so. [00:19:48] Speaker C: And then there wasn't a running order. You sort of went as you thought people were ready. [00:19:53] Speaker B: There was a running order, yeah. So we had times. The brilliant Tracy Duncan, who's an old colleague of mine, stepped up and said, I can help you with some stuff. And I went, great, can you help? And she did the times for me. So everyone had class times and the morning was dressage so we did Intro to Grand Prix and the afternoon was jumping. So we did, I think, you know, we had tiny little eevee and decks to go around with jodie at about 30 centimeters to 1 meter 20. So you know, we had the whole range on the day and it was busy. Like that was over 50 classes to fit into one day. I'd said yes to maybe one too many people and stretched ourselves a little bit time wise. So yeah, that was, that's how we set it up. But in order for people to compete they had to submit an online application. So it had to be a bit of a cover letter about them and their horse and why they want to do it. They had to show me three ways to stop in an emergency bridleness out of walk, trot and canter and also a video of themselves doing the class they wanted to enter. So if they wanted to compete at a meter 10, I had to see a video of them jumping around of meter 10 bridalists. And then from that video you can gauge if someone is safe enough and has enough going on like techniques and understanding and enough horsemanship that if the shit hit the fan, they were safe no matter what. So that's our biggest thing. [00:21:36] Speaker C: How many competitors? How many competitors on the day over [00:21:42] Speaker B: 20, 23 we had. [00:21:45] Speaker C: And out of interest, were there a lot more people than that that had applied? We had to then. [00:21:54] Speaker B: Oh, I think I had to. [00:21:56] Speaker C: You don't have to say a number because if 24 people applied, don't, don't like there were more. Not everyone made it through. [00:22:05] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. I had to, you know, politely say they weren't ready. And I did give them some feedback on what they could work on to, you know, say you can try again next time and maybe get some sort of support from an instructor. [00:22:21] Speaker C: Not, not quite. I was going to say sod feedback. Not quite this time. But here's a link to my next clinic. Please book on. [00:22:28] Speaker A: Wouldn't it be, wouldn't it be interesting if I always find extraordinary in some countries you have to have a license to have a dog. You have to prove you're a good person to have a dog. You don't have to for children, which says a lot about the world, but there is very little policing when it comes to the horse world. You don't have to prove you can ride before you enter a competition. You, you don't have to prove you can do anything before you take your horse. Cross country or team chasing, eventing, one of the most dangerous sports on the planet. You don't have to send a video of yourself riding before you go for it. But so interesting that like you're doing it like this without. And I totally get, I'm very for it. But I don't know. Do you think it could be a way of improving horse welfare? I'm just, this is literally just coming to my mind now. If everybody had to send videos of themselves before they competed, I know it would never happen. And just show your training at home. I think it would be quite eye opening for some places to see what people are like behind. Yeah. Do you know what I mean? Like let's see how good you are. You're training before you're allowed to compete. Do you think it would up the level for horses? [00:23:36] Speaker B: I think so. And people take it a little bit more seriously then. And you know you, it's that just that first filter set apart a lot of people with like how good their applications were and how much thought they'd put into them and, and training and you know it takes hours and hours and hours and hours to train a horse to this level to be safe as well. And you have to 100% trust that level of training. You and your horse have to set yourself up for success and be able like one of the biggest bits of feedback we've had is how relaxed and calm all the horses were on the day and how relaxed the warmup was. But you know, okay, I knew a lot of the people there already but there were a couple of people I'd never met, I'd never heard of and they rocked up and aced it. They were insane. And that was because their applications were so good. I was just totally confident that they were going to be okay. [00:24:46] Speaker C: People would be on their best behavior a little bit more because everyone there knows they're going to be riding bridal less. So everyone's going to be bringing that they're ridden, their riding work, their horsemanship work to the absolute max because you're taking it a bit more seriously. Like from. I know it's massively wonderful from a welfare point of view but even just from like one thing I have when I teach a bit of a pet peeve of mine is the amount of people that say that they wish the horse would trust them when I know damn well that that person doesn't trust the horse. And there's gotta be a bit of a two way street. Well now you start playing around bridal less that's a two way street because it's your training that's going to help you when to know if it, if it all goes sideways. So I'd also wonder if a byproduct of the deliberate trying to make a step forwards for horse welfare and alternative horsemanship in the competitive world is also that everyone is that little bit more vulnerable. And so you're not gonna, you know, kick one more than you would, you're not gonna ride more aggressively to try and get those sharper turns in the jump off if you're not capable of, you know, technically more thought. [00:25:59] Speaker A: It basically boils down to your thinking before you're doing so you're thinking before you let these people in an arena together, you're thinking about how your training is before you go to a show. I think one of the things here, Mir as well, is even just going back to your first dressage test in front of people and, and the people entering the competition, it's. And, and we are trying to improve horse welfare and go on this journey and how do we do it? Is bridalness gonna improve horse welfare? Is this gonna. Whatever it is. But also when you take yourself on a journey like this and you put yourself out there, as you have done, you're also putting yourself up to massively fail. Like, imagine if in that first dressage test your horse had fucked off and jumped the judges car. Yeah. Do you know what I mean? Like, it's so. Yeah. There is so much. And all these people who have entered, it's very brave taking that step to do stuff a little bit differently. So you have to be so careful that you've dotted your eyes and crossed your T's. But when you've. It does feel like a lot of the time with horses we do stuff when we go, oh, well, it was the horse's fault because you. Whereas with this, if the horse does it, it's your fault because your training wasn't there before you went to the competition. But no one would ever say that with a bridle. If a horse bolted, they'd be like, yeah. Oh, it's just so strong. It' just so strong. Yeah. I just think, I think it is amazing because you could have buggered it for everyone if on that first dressage test you, you got pissed off with. Basically. Yeah, I mean, that's what I said. [00:27:25] Speaker B: And like moving forwards for this, it would be really easy for someone to bugger it for all of us. And that's the terrifying part because like Ben, you'll have had it when unfortunately a show team had an accident and all of our insurances went up. So like everyone across the board and shit happens. I know. You know, horses can unfortunately make very poor. Well, they don't have decision making in those instances. But if we had an accident happen at that competition, ain't no way any of us being insured to ride bridal us again. You know, it's. [00:28:02] Speaker A: But yeah, it can happen at a normal competition with a bridle and they're still covered. Yeah. So it's just. Yeah. There's so much to unpack. It's incredible. [00:28:15] Speaker B: It has made me feel like Pandora's box. [00:28:19] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:28:19] Speaker B: To all these questions. I wasn't expecting it. [00:28:24] Speaker C: You were brave because no one else wanted to stick their head above the parapet and do it. Because people. Once you started advertising the competition, I got asked a lot like Ben, what do you think? And I was like. At first I was like, I'm nervous because it has to go well for all the reasons you said. But then when I saw also the marketing and the videos and everything on this spot on beautiful. The way you put all the videos out explaining the rules and the way to apply. Once I saw that I knew I was pretty certain I was like, oh, this is going to be great because I'm sure you've had it as well. Mia. I've had talk clinics where a student turns up that I've never taught before and they say, oh, I wanna work on my bridal less. And I'm like, cool, have you got bridal less? And they're like, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And you're like, okay, show me what you've got. And then you watch some person do the wall of death on a little fat Connemara and you're like, oh, you've not. Like of course you thought you had, but you don't. And so I think that the application process and everything, so sensible, such a good idea. And I think it's, it is just amazing. One thing I have to say that has annoyed me a bit with it is when I've seen some people been like throwing some shade at the competition and stuff for things like saying oh, they, but they had reins in the warm up and that sort of thing. And it made me so angry because I thought all we like. So one of the things we've done with this podcast is really try and champion change in the horse world. We've got some big names on and put them in some pretty uncomfortable positions being like, come on, answer. And. And then what really had disappointed me was people like. But they, they, they had reins in the warm up. I'm like fucking hell. Everyone competed bridal less. We don't build Rome in a day. Like, we have to go. Like, I'm sure that in the future there will reach a point where if you're doing, you know, pre St. George Grand Prix dressage or if you're jumping, you know, in the higher levels, those competitors probably will be trusted eventually to warm up together. Bridal us, like, come on, you're at that point. Well, to be honest, if we were performing at the same place, we would warm up. Bridal us together because we both know that we're going to be fine. [00:30:32] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:30:33] Speaker B: And to be honest, like, the warm up on the whole, everyone was riding around just on the buckle. Like they had reins on. Because they had to have reins on. They weren't using the reins in the warmup. And I know that we would have been fine bridalists in the warm up. I know, but for insurance they were like, hell no. Like, that's gotta be. [00:30:55] Speaker A: Like, that can't be a thing. [00:30:59] Speaker C: And it just, it annoyed me because I was like, no. Half these people have said they wanted change in the horse world. Change has arrived. And it turned out they didn't want change. They just wanted something to moan about, didn't they? [00:31:11] Speaker B: It's really funny because actually the traditional world has kind of accepted us with open arms. I've not heard hardly any grumbles from the traditional horse world is actually been the real left wing of our world. And unfortunately the plus our trainers again, I'm like, fuck's sake, stop having a go. I use positive reinforcement all the bloody time. [00:31:35] Speaker A: And like, so do most of these [00:31:38] Speaker B: students, like, all right, so. And I know it's not true. Plus R. Yeah, I know I can [00:31:46] Speaker A: do all the lingo. [00:31:47] Speaker B: I know all the science, you know, down to the hormonal level changes that happen in horses when you give them trees. I totally get it. But like, guys, we're trying. If you want to go have a go, go watch your local show jumping and have a go at them. Like, try, we're trying here. And I luckily I've not really felt very affected by the negative comments. I feel that we've had overwhelmingly positive comments. Like probably percent are positive and we've only got the 10% that people are trying to pick it apart. Oh, they're wearing bits in the warm up. Oh, yeah. But these horses were trained in bridles and then they've taken them off. So that's the part that's been interesting to watch unfold, is the reaction, I [00:32:38] Speaker C: think interesting Is a very calm word. Like when I've seen these people, I should annoy to me. Just when people like, oh, it was trained in a bridle. I'm like, oh, cool. Does your. Your horse not count because it was range before you rode it? Like, what's the. And like you say the R people. You cannot ride purely R. You cannot. [00:32:58] Speaker A: Can. I don't know what R is. [00:33:00] Speaker C: You should do. We had Caleb on. [00:33:04] Speaker A: Yeah. Oh, is that. Do the opposite conditioning. [00:33:07] Speaker B: I'll go get my whiteboard. Hang on. [00:33:08] Speaker C: Like, no. [00:33:13] Speaker A: Is this just another fancy way of saying positive reinforcement and negative reinforcement? Fancy Liberty. [00:33:21] Speaker B: I listened to your Caleb one. He's like the Australian male version of me as well. I love Caleb. I call it subtractional reinforcement. So there's additional. Because you're adding something and then subtractional is you're taking away a stimulus to get. To reinforce the behavior. So subtractional and additional. That's literally what I've. I think we've got it on a podcast of mine. [00:33:52] Speaker A: So. [00:33:52] Speaker B: Because you're taking away. And I wish they'd never done positive negative because of the conversations you guys had as well. Totally agree. But yeah, so the. Unfortunately we have got some flak from the very left field, but it's fine. It's like we're trying. I know in my truest being that I didn't really go out with this intention, but the ripples or like waves that have been caused from this are now helping shift and change the sport for horses. And as you guys have said, it's kind of like the thing that needed to happen. And I had no bloody idea it was going to be my thing. Like I. But every reel I posted just would go viral and I was like, oh, wow, okay, that's a bit crazy. And I post the same videos. All I had was videos of Boogie and Sea Lass at Western Lawns competing bridal in Callum's sister's second hand. Hand me down dressage jacket, might I add, because I only competed in working equitation. So I only have tweed jackets and don't have a dressage jacket. That's how little dressage competition experience I had going into this. And yeah. [00:35:11] Speaker C: And then on we should change that. If. If anyone's listening to this and wants to sponsor Mia with a really fancy dressage outfit. [00:35:19] Speaker B: Callum got me one for my birthday. He got me a really nice jacket for my birthday. And then horsey hoods have sponsored me and given me a gorgeous competition set. And. Yeah. And whale saddles have Got me a fitted saddle for Boogie as well. So very, very big shout out to those brilliant brands supporting me to make me look like I know what I'm doing. So, yeah. [00:35:42] Speaker A: That none of us know what we're doing. Mia, I'm sorry, but no amount of good dressage tack and bridles and coats to make anyone know what the fuck they're doing. And that's what I love about this, because it feels like we're unpicking tradition that has not done right by the horse for. For a few years now. Dress, dressage and show jumping has become so extreme and so big and so about money that something needed to change. And I feel like whatever. Whoever. Whatever anyone thinks about this, this is driving some kind of change which is better for the horse. How we do it, what we do it. It's all experimenting at this point. But if we are sparking conversations, what I really love was Lynn McLeod. [00:36:28] Speaker B: Lynn McLeod. [00:36:30] Speaker A: So, MacLeod, there you go. No, no, no. [00:36:33] Speaker B: Lindsay McLeod. [00:36:35] Speaker A: Oh, okay, good. [00:36:36] Speaker B: When she competed in France for the Working Equitation Championships. Because I. I know Lynn from Working Equitation Squad days very well. I remember when she first got Hermes, but the French pronounced her name Lyne MacLeod. So that's what we call her now. [00:36:55] Speaker C: That's her stage name. [00:36:56] Speaker B: Sorry, Lynn. [00:36:57] Speaker A: That's her stage name. Like, Ben's is Titty le camp. So what I. What? I got my what? Okay. Things that got my backup to things that I liked. Things that got my backup is the putting her dressage test below Lottie Fries. Okay? Lottie has been on her own journey. She loves her horses. Let's not fucking start slagging Lottie off. Do you know what I mean? [00:37:23] Speaker C: Like, I disagree with you on this one. [00:37:25] Speaker A: Oh, no. Let me. Let me go somewhere with it. I'm waving my arms around, okay? Because I have never been trained in Liberty or Bridal. Yeah. I went on my horse journey in Ireland. Learned of people. Do you know what I mean? Like, if I'd have met you guys in my early 20s, this is the journey I would have gone on. But people have been on their own journey. That's the way she's been taught. That is what she's been told is right. That is how to be competitive, okay? You can only open people's eyes to certain things. But I don't think we need to slag off other people to do things better. But the comparison is great in the fact that. Look at how this horse can go. To look at how this horse can go. This does look more relaxed Is there something the dressage world can learn about it? Do you know what I mean? I don't think we need to slag Lottie off to get this to be achieved. Well. [00:38:11] Speaker B: And it's unfortunate. Yeah, sorry. It was just unfortunate that that was the video that was chosen. You know, it could have been, I don't want to say any Grand Prix rider, but it could have been as a comparison. [00:38:26] Speaker A: Yeah. Why don't we pick a couple that are. Let's compare those ones. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I am very defensive as well, because I love our sport, being at the Olympics. I love seeing horses at the Olympics. I love proper competition. So I don't want to get to a point where people are going, oh, this is our only way forward. No, let's all go forward together. Let's not swag off anything. So if we want to progress with Bridal is helping top level horses and any horse, we can't be an us and them. We have to work. Yeah. As a team and not be slagging people off. Yeah. [00:39:00] Speaker B: And I think I'm very much about that as well. I, I very. I don't think I've ever slagged anyone off, particularly online, you know, in particular, never. Even when I've been really hard done by, you know, I don't put anything online, but I just come on here [00:39:18] Speaker A: and slag people off. We do it all the time, but it's. [00:39:21] Speaker B: I've always been one to just lead by example and I really want to inspire people. And people won't change. [00:39:29] Speaker A: Yes. [00:39:30] Speaker B: If you point the finger. If you point the finger, people get defensive, their backs go up and they shut you out. I have created more change with, say, my really traditional horse friends. I've created more change by sparking a little bit of curiosity. And then they go, oh, how did you get that result? Or how did you teach that? And suddenly, like, all the flashnose bands come off and then suddenly they're walking around in a rope holster or, you know, it's really funny how. And their show jumpers are parking up to be mounted now, rather than having three people manhandle a rider on. You know, it's these little changes in general horsemanship and, you know, again, working on your connection with a horse in all the. All the things of horse life, you know, not just riding Bridalists. It's not about that almost. But the Bridalist competition has opened the doors to all of this conversation. So it's just. Yeah, it's so. It's so amazing. But I agree I struggle with the comparison videos because I feel awful for the person that's, you know, in the comparison. By the way, guys, I didn't post that it was someone else. And actually, oh, Ben, I bet you I shat my pants. When I saw that she had made a reel about the Bridalist competition and my phone wouldn't load the video because we don't have good enough service. And I was like, like, oh my God. [00:41:04] Speaker A: Oh my God, oh my God, oh my God, oh my God. And I was like, oh my God. [00:41:07] Speaker B: And then I was like, okay, it's positive. It's okay. Don't worry. Because she does quite a few comparison videos and you know, is known for pushing the boat out with that. [00:41:20] Speaker C: I think it's. I would say. Can I just ask Mia a question because I'm pretty sure I know your answer on this, but I could be wrong because the idea of the promoting the Bridalist competition isn't to one day never have anybody use a bridle. Like it's. It's too. And I would say that's where I would say I think making videos that compare traditional dressage to bridalist dressage just to bully traditional dressage is wrong. I think comparison is fine. And if the public say they'd rather see it bridal less even if it was at a lower level, I think that is fine. And I think that would be a consequence. That is the consequence of federations not opening doors to more things sooner. Because what I don't want to see is people trying to get bits banned. I love Roman riding my team of six in hand and all that stuff. [00:42:17] Speaker B: You need bits. [00:42:18] Speaker C: But I would like to see the door open. I would compete in that bridal with a bit if you like, but also bitless bridal us if you can prove you're competent enough. Do you know, we're not. It's exactly. It's not looking for. Do you feel the same on that or are you totally. We should all be bridle it. [00:42:36] Speaker B: No, no, no. I still ride in a bit and a bridle as well every day, you know, on my own horses, on training horses. I really think that, you know, okay, Boogie has been my one kind of project and you know, Boogie was started Bridalist but he can wear a bit. He can be ridden with reins. It's not as if he's been this perfect precious child of never wearing anything. But I did stop wearing a bit nearly three years ago now on him to experiment with this grand plan of can he go to, like, how high can we go without ever putting reins back on him? That's like my own personal challenge. I'm not telling everyone else to do that. I just want to see if it's possible because I've got a horse that can. And. And we're both young and I might as well just try and see what happens. But then I still ride in a bridle. And, you know, I said this in my article as well. The first Horse and Hound article was, I have nothing against the tools. It's how they're used and who is using them. So you must get the whips all the time, Ben, the whole whips thing with Liberty horses, I've got a great [00:43:50] Speaker C: demo for that that you can nick if you like. When you're doing a demo and someone asks about the whips, ride in a head collar or a bridle and take the reins off and then ride around leaning forward, holding the head collar or the bridle with your hands, and explain how the reins are really vital just so that you can have your body in the correct position while still manipulating the bit. Well, that's the same thing when we're on the plot. [00:44:17] Speaker B: Yeah. Horses have long bodies, we have tall bodies. [00:44:20] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:44:21] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:44:22] Speaker C: So that's like. It's just an extension. And I also would say I was really. I thought it was very cool and, please, I hope I've got this right, but I thought it was very cool that you actually were bold enough to share some videos on your socials that showed that there are people that do neck ropes in a bad way. [00:44:41] Speaker A: Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. [00:44:43] Speaker B: And I've seen it with my own eyes. [00:44:45] Speaker C: Yeah. And so for every horrific gadget you can get in the bitted world, there are horrific gadgets down the other end as well. There are in every aspect of the industry. And it's what we're against is all of them. [00:45:02] Speaker A: Yeah, we're against. Hooray. [00:45:05] Speaker B: Yay. [00:45:07] Speaker C: But I thought that was really bold of you to do that, because I was like, I wonder. [00:45:11] Speaker B: Yeah, well, it calls it out a little bit as well, because I feel, particularly for Bridalist riding, it feels like a real, like, smoke and mirrors, where they're like, look, I'm riding Bridalist in this beautiful harmony and connection with my horse. And actually, I've put a spur collar on it or a tackle collar where it's literally a leather neck rope with metal prongs poking into the horse. And all right, the horse is going to be bloody light, but it's going to be Through a lot of pain, pressure. Not through any training. It, like, completely. Oh. It's like the total opposite of what we're trying to get across. And then someone's gone and brought that into bridal less riding. [00:45:57] Speaker A: You're like, why? [00:45:58] Speaker B: How do humans do this? With everything that's, like, beautiful and harmonious and tapping into, like, that true, like, oneness with an animal and we've just bastardized it again somehow, you know, I [00:46:13] Speaker A: didn't think it was possible. There's shortcuts because humans don't want to take the time to learn something and do actually do it properly. Everyone, here's our fucking shortcut. [00:46:25] Speaker B: Mine's early. Yeah, go for it. [00:46:28] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:46:29] Speaker B: This is my pet peeve. It's early. There, Done. Yeah, it's out of the way. This is it. [00:46:37] Speaker A: The one thing I wanted to ask you both. So my. My main love for the. For the bridal list, whether you just do a bit with it and put it back on or train with it and just. And then compete, I don't give a shit. What I love about it is my main gripe as a riding instructor is people balancing on the horse's mouth with their hands. I hate it. Not like, for me, it's body, seat, leg, rein. This is the last thing you need. I always say to my students, especially when they're starting out from the word go, I say, your reins are not your brakes and they are not for steering. They are to help balance the horse. Blah, blah, blah. If you ask people, go and do rising trot and don't use your. And drop your reins. So many people wobble and fall over. Yeah. So for me, just doing a bit of bridal less even, or like, getting people to ride on the buckle and things like that. You're teaching people to ride better, have an independent seat. Yes. And that, for me, shows if you can ride without reins. Bridal, whatever. It just is teaching people to not use their hands and not using the horse's mouth to balance. [00:47:44] Speaker B: I'm gonna jump on this here now, because actually, this is a really good point about neck ropes. So we were super hot with our rules that if the neck rope came above halfway up the neck and into the throat area, you got immediate elimination. Immediate. Same with the stick. [00:48:03] Speaker A: So is that where it hurt? Like? [00:48:04] Speaker B: Cause, well, so science. The horse's esophagus is exposed beyond halfway up the neck. Further down, there's, like, huge musculature that protects it. And that's where we put a big. A driving collar. So they actually are designed by nature to push into pressure there and they push on each other with their chests and shoulders all the time. The benefit about having a neck rope there and sensitizing them to the neck rope, because there aren't many nerve endings there. Fun fact. There are the same amount of nerve endings in the mouth as there are on the nose. So actually bitless riding technically is in just the same sensitive place, just not in the bit in the mouth. So. But the neck rope, we're actually going to do a load of studies on this now with wow. Saddles about rain pressure, the pressure on the neck arteries, the esophagus, the muscles. Like we're going all out into our research behind this and with vets as well. So this is really exciting. But yeah, so to protect the horses from our like one or one or two bits of equipment, we have the stick. They weren't allowed to make contact on the horse's nose with the stick for pushing turns. If they had to use the stick, only the air around the horse can be pushed. And if the neck rope came above halfway up, elimination immediately. No matter where they were. [00:49:34] Speaker A: What that was. That was one thing I didn't know. Yeah. So I said it on the last podcast. I was like, what's the science behind the neck rope? But now I know. I love it. [00:49:43] Speaker B: And technically, when you ride bridal us, you should not be relying on the neck rope. You should be able to do everything without a neck rope. The only reason I have a neck rope is to ask for the self carriage. So my horse can walk, trot, canter, gallop, sideways, leg yields, everything without a neck rope. But then if I put the neck rope on and I put a feel on the base of his neck, I'm speaking directly to the thoracic sling and saying, can you lift here and collect? And obviously there's a long way to go. He unfortunately had a field injury leading up to the competition too. So he was particularly weak and unfit and very round, might I add Spanish horses on lush grass and. Yeah, but that's been like a really interesting process that when he gets a little bit unfit, he actually does duck behind the vertical when he's not strong, but he puts himself there and comes straight back out. It's not like he's being held there. It's not like I'm reinforcing or releasing that. That's Boogie. It's typical of the breed as well. They often kind of duck behind the contact a lot. And also confirmationally, say Lynn's fantastic Hermes. Him and Boogie are quite Similar confirmation. Hermes is a Lusitano. She was our Grand Prix rider. He's got a super short neck, really short neck. So people have commented that her neck rope came a little bit higher. Her neck rope only had to come up like three inches and it was halfway up his neck because he's so short. Whereas the warmbloods have much longer picture of her here. Yeah, I mean, Lynn was phenomenal. She was amazing. [00:51:26] Speaker A: Her post as well, while we're on Lynn very quickly was brilliant. Her post just kind of like explaining how she's ridden and trained. She's on this journey with the horse. It wasn't just, oh, I took the bridle off and we could do it. And I thought she really in that post. Yeah. [00:51:44] Speaker B: A well schooled horse shouldn't have to rely on the reins. Like, if you have a really good professional rider and a highly trained horse, you should be able to take the reins away and they can ride bridle less in one session. You know, it's. That's, it's that easy. If your horse is connected to your seat, to your voice, to your leg, you know, all right, it's good to have extra buttons in for training sake, but, you know, you don't need to rely on the reins at all. [00:52:15] Speaker A: I did feel a bit sad though that she. Obviously people have been saying stuff to her because she had to say about her pirouettes. Could have been smaller, her seat could have been better, but she'd had a virus. Fuck off and leave her alone is what I say to people who've been [00:52:31] Speaker C: having a go at her riderless go and ride those movements on the buckle end. [00:52:35] Speaker A: Yeah, like obviously that she felt she had to say all this stuff. So in defense of Lyn, if you've got something to say, say it to me. I'll stick up for her. [00:52:44] Speaker C: I don't think anyone we need to defend Lyn from is really worth the airtime of respond bonding to. [00:52:51] Speaker A: Yeah. So my, my next question to both of you is obviously I commentate on sport and present and travel the world and these horses that I see are hot as hell. I mean, horses at top, top level competition, jumping a meter 60, I mean they go in there and they are all kinds of nuts and they bloody love the job. And I've seen them love the job. I've seen a few that don't love the job and I've seen some terrible riders that still manage to ride at top level. But my, I feel like if you took a bridle off some of those, it would be definitely wall of death. Do you know what I mean? But like you say, a good, trained, well trained horse, it's how. And, and my issue with that is that the more excited the horse gets and then the bigger the competition, the bigger the bits seem to get. And the contraptions that seem to be on some of these horses, that's relying [00:53:43] Speaker B: on pain, pressure to control. [00:53:46] Speaker A: Sorry, the contraptions. Absolutely. So my question to you is, if these riders took more time with their training, even with these very explosive, huge horses, would then the biting be less or would the adrenaline of top level competition always override that element? That's my question. If these riders could take away and learn and do more of this, do you think all of that could be overcome? [00:54:17] Speaker B: What do you think then? SILENCE I think it's now. [00:54:21] Speaker A: Yeah, sorry. [00:54:24] Speaker C: I think it's just more complex than that, isn't it as well? It's the entire, like coming back to that same conversation we always have, it becomes about the entire machinery around all the competitions. Do the riders want that horse to be in that class? Do they want to push that horse that hard in that class? Are the owners telling them to. Are they skinned? Do they need the money? Do they need, you know, So I think that's a massive side of it. I think it might just mean that there were different horses at the top level or some horses might not get to the same level that they would in the contraptions. [00:54:57] Speaker B: Yeah, I agree. [00:54:59] Speaker C: Because like. [00:55:01] Speaker B: Oh, sorry, it's the buffer. So anxiety. Oh, yeah, sorry. [00:55:07] Speaker A: There you go. [00:55:08] Speaker C: Go, go. [00:55:09] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:55:09] Speaker B: So, Jenny, you said stressed and you said excited. So anxiety and excitement are actually the same chemical reaction in our body. And as mammals, we share a very similar nervous system to horses. It's the same, actually, and it's kind of your own attitude that deciphers whether it's positive or negative. So for sure, tapping into play with horses and having an up regulated horse that's playful, excited and ready to do the job, which is what we do a lot in our liberty work, tapping into that innate desire to play and getting them to perform, like Ben's got a capriole at liberty. That's massive explosive high adrenaline energy, or would be normally. But because it's playful, it's a positive feeling and it doesn't stress the horse out. So that's like a way to think about it for sure. I now, having helped Serena with a few of her top level competition horses. All right, they're only up to 140, 145. Not yet. 160s, only 145. LOL. You know, I've seen it's possible for these really innately quite explosive, spooky, reactive horses be able to, you know, gallop around bridal us and jump bridal us. And everyone has again commented on how beautiful and calm Serena's rounds are and like how together they are. [00:56:44] Speaker A: Yeah. This is Serena Kulich. Just for context guys, Serena Kulich, who. She's the one. If you've been, just if you're here because you've been following the bridal competition, she's on the chestnut jumping the meter 20. I'm right, I'm saying that. [00:56:56] Speaker B: Yeah. And, and you know Georgie as well, who was also jumping in the 120. She's fantastic. And she's a student of mine as well and also my horse's physio. So big up Georgie too. She was, she also did a beautiful round. You know, they have to have some positive body tension to perform these bigger, more athletic maneuvers. Now I haven't jumped to 160 by any standards. I did a round of 90 the other week and that was my first time jumping a course in 10 years. So woohoo. Fun. But I actually had this conversation with the show jumper last week where she was like, okay, so how do you balance athleticism and coiling that spring which can bring the horse's emotions up and actually balancing that with relaxation and that is the constant balance that we're playing with with our horses. [00:57:50] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:57:51] Speaker B: So. And I guess maybe these top level grand prix horses would be older because they would need more experience out competing in those environments before they're truly able to be that athletic and still stay relaxed. [00:58:12] Speaker A: Because that's the thing, isn't it? I mean especially with the show jumping world. I mean these. You're seeing nine year olds now competing in the meter 50. There was a cut two nine year olds in the, in the meter 55 that I was commentating on over a couple of weeks ago. The, the horses are millions of millions. Yeah. And the pressure to get them to that level by 10 years old. But I do think that if there was some element of this, could we bypass the ridiculous bitting that just is horrible. And the, that, that moment in the warm up where you just see them lose their minds and having an extra tool to your kit. But yes, I think you're like, obviously I think the problem is these things then is an extra element of time [00:58:57] Speaker C: in the training or just sort of more, more time on the foundation. Like start playing them with their basic Groundwork and Liberty at 2 and 3 years old. [00:59:07] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:59:08] Speaker C: Build that bond and that connection. Because I think I'd like to just like remind everybody that at no point did we say we want everybody at the Olympics bridal us. Like we want to see like, no, no, no. [00:59:19] Speaker A: But that's never gonna happen. [00:59:21] Speaker C: But a little bit more horsemanship. Like. [00:59:24] Speaker A: Yes. [00:59:24] Speaker C: In a. In an alternate. And when I say horsemanship, I obviously mean alternative horsemanship. Under. No, please no one pretend that I'm pretending that John Whitaker and Carl Hester aren't phenomenal horsemen because they. But I know. So I think it's more that side of it. And I think something that's positive to say that is that like, you know, we know that people like Becky Moody have played around with Tristan Tucker TRT and that. [00:59:46] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:59:46] Speaker C: And then you see how well their horses go with it. So we're not even saying these people should be aiming for bridal less, but maybe just a bit more emotional regulation [00:59:55] Speaker A: teaching them to switch off and just an openness to. Also, you're going online show jumping. Whether. What. What you don't see in that moment with these horses that are charging at the fences and jumping massively and looking wild, but actually probably enjoying themselves quite a lot of them. Sometimes wearing these big bits on social media, all you see is the bad. You see people screenshotting these shots and you were saying a horse at Bridal List was. Is behind the. Is becomes behind my horse. Behind the concept. Yeah, your horse. But it. When you see it without a bridle, you don't worry about it. You go, well, that's where the horse wants to be. You see it with a bridle doing a warm up dressage. You attack them online. No question that that horse might be more comfortable and it's a perfectly good rider. So what. What I think would be great is just if the whole world could come together and some of these top riders go, do you know what? I've tried all these different bits. I'm now going to come to Mia or Ben and say, is there something you guys can do to help me with this horse that is becoming such a handful? Because. Because essentially some of them just love the job so much they become completely nuts. [01:00:57] Speaker C: But again, in a dream world, can't we help them get them back ridden away at 3 and 4? Don't make me unpick stitching on a cooked 11 year old. [01:01:07] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:01:09] Speaker A: Shoulder out, stopping. [01:01:12] Speaker C: That's what we're saying is you can help a horse that's got that cooked. But you'll never like. So I say the two biggest movements I see this in are rearing and psych. You can tell when a horse has been put in the crash pressure cooker when it learned that, and you can help them, but they never really lose it. So it's. Yeah, we can obviously help horses that have been like. But it's. If you can instill this a little bit, like with a child, how you're brought up will always, you know, there'll be echoes of that throughout your personality for life. So if you can start the horses off the correct way, everything else is so much easier. [01:01:52] Speaker B: That's part of the problem. [01:01:53] Speaker A: That's kind of what I'm saying, is the riders being open to it. [01:01:57] Speaker B: Yeah, but, like, we're always the problem solved. No, that's okay. We're always like the last solution rather than being somewhere sooner. And, you know, as you know, there is so much good content out there now. Ben's got his, you know, method. I've got an academy. There's Tristan's academy. Will's got one. Yvette's got one. [01:02:20] Speaker C: I need to glaze over it. Mia, you can check out the Ben Atkinson Method or the Heart of Horsemanship Academy at your. At your leisure. [01:02:29] Speaker B: You can. At the tip of your fingertips. [01:02:32] Speaker A: Yeah. I would just, like you say, like, just love for some really top riders to, like, like Becky Moody has. She's come on tour with us and she's gone, oh, I really want to learn more. And she wants to come on our next tour, and she's like, jenny, but this time, I want to do more of the liberty. I want to do more of it. [01:02:48] Speaker C: It. [01:02:48] Speaker A: And just having a few of these riders on social, and there are a few out there, don't get me wrong, there are a few show jumpers who are doing it, but they've already been kind of on that journey a long time. But like you say, just instilling the basics into the. Into the early days so the outcome is better. But we need almost for someone to come through the process, don't we? Like someone who's at the next top level. [01:03:11] Speaker C: And then also you get people like Abby Lyle who can do her Grand Prix stuff on her horse tackling. [01:03:16] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:03:17] Speaker C: Like, so. And I just really want to instill, Because I don't want to get anyone's backup. I don't care if I get anyone's backup. I could talk about cyclists again. But what I mean more is we're not saying one or the other. We're saying wouldn't it be really, really cool for. Because, like, I can't. I can't jump or do dress as like a top competitive rider. But I know horsemanship quite well, so it'd be quite cool if those worlds could collide a bit more and help each other. [01:03:46] Speaker A: Totally agree. We have been going for quite a long time. I think we should ask questions. We could go forever. We'll just have to do a part two. So one of the main questions that a lot of people have asked Mia is how do you know when the time is right to take off the bridle? Brilliant question, I'm guessing. [01:04:10] Speaker B: Yeah, we've kind of already said it. You know, it's when you can walk, trot, canter, stop, turn, go sideways, go backwards, do circles. Not just at home, but in another environment as well, even if it's an arena hire. And you do not have to touch your reins. So if you can literally ride on the buckle the entire time and if you touch your reins once in that ride in that one moment, that could be the dangerous moment. So if you have to rely on your reins in that moment, that could be when the shit hits the fan. So when you're so confident and not just the one time that you get a good day and you can ride without touching the reins, repeat that, you know, make sure you can do it at least 10 good rides where you have not had to touch your reins. If you're doing this on your own at home, which I did too, as a young girl, I didn't have any formal instructor for a good, like five years into my natural horsemanship journey. But doing it at home, making sure that you're really thoroughly prepared if you've got an experienced instructor. And we are going to put a list of, like, approved instructors that we go, yes, they teach bridal safely on the British Bridalist competition website as well. So we'll have, like approved instructors where we're like, yep, we know you can teach this. Well, if someone wants to learn, they can go and have lessons with you. As we've already said, many people have online platforms. There's so many ways you can learn how to do this. And literally we had everything from a Welsh section, a Cobs Lusitanos, oh, so cute. Up to like all the warm bloods as well. We had every breed of horse there and they were all competing on the day being absolutely fantastic. So anyone can do it, but you have to really make sure you are safe first and that you and your horse have a really high level of understanding and Communication. [01:06:18] Speaker A: A good Charles Owen hat and a good Charles Owen bat protector. [01:06:22] Speaker B: Very good. My granddad used to ban me from riding if I rode without my back protector. [01:06:30] Speaker A: Yeah, too right. And they've got some great back protectors now that just like, even just I wear the one that's like. Like a zip up, like gilet, just as an extra little. I call it my wind My windy vest. Because I'm getting old now and I'm a bit windy when I'm riding. Youngsters. So this is a question that's been asked by someone and lots of people have asked this question in lots of ways. I think I know what the answer to this is, but I'm going to let you, because you're far more intelligent than Mimi. What are the most important aids for Bridalists and how do you teach them? [01:07:03] Speaker B: Well, I mean, me and Ben can talk about this, but I always say you've got your seat, which includes. So that's like your body. Oh, it's just done a thumbs up because I put my thumb up. That's really funny. So you've got your seat, which includes your legs, and that's your body language. You've got your neck rope, which, okay, we don't want to have to rely on in the early days. But it's a very good emergency handbrake. If you've got a really good backup off of it, you've got your stick, which is how we push the turns in the early days. Push is natural to horses. They understand push, they don't understand pull. But we are pully, grabby creatures. We understand pull, which is why we've created leverage things like reins, ropes, head collars, bits, bridles. So we feel very alien pushing to move a horse. But to them, it's completely natural. So they would rather be pushed than pulled, might I add. And then you also have your voice. So, Ben, how about you? Is that similar, if not the same? I'm sure. [01:08:07] Speaker C: Yeah, pretty much like. Yeah, pretty much the same. I would. One thing I always say to people is Bridalist riding is still riding. [01:08:15] Speaker A: Yeah. Can I just say, it's the same whether you've got maybe not so much the stick because you probably use a bit of your reins for directional, like opening it out. Not pulling, but body seat legal, no bridle. [01:08:31] Speaker C: And it's insane how many people are like, oh, I'm crap at riding. I want to go bridal less. You're like, you double bounce your rising trot. Like, nice. We need. And it's like all the Other thing I'll add on to that is even the. The biomechanics of the horse are the same. It's not like, ah, it's fine to go like this, it's bridal. It's like, no, doesn't matter if you're on the floor on its back. That all the rules of riding when it comes to how the horse, the shape it should be in, the way it should move the. You know, all those purest things about dressage still apply. All we're changing if we're not having [01:09:06] Speaker A: a bridle and you can't hide behind your reins, you can't hide your balance. [01:09:11] Speaker B: It is true self carriage. [01:09:13] Speaker C: And you will get in a sticky. The good thing about the neck rope, and this is where I think it's quite. It amuses me, you can lean off a horse's mouth, and I'm not saying you should, but you can lean off a horse's mouth and it might make it a bit numb like a riding school pony, but you'll still be able to stop and turn. If you lean off a neck rope like a neck strap all the time, one day you'll go to ask for those emergency brakes and they won't be there, there anymore, so it will deteriorate faster. And then like. I think the only thing I'd add that you sort of touched on earlier, Mia, is this is where a Liberty foundation is. Amazing. Because, like for my horses, they know that if I touch them on the shoulder, they should pirouette around the hindquarters. If I touch the hindquarters, they should move them away. If I touch on the rib cage, they should leg yield away all from the floor. So when I jump on top, if I'm asking with something, with my, with my seat and my leg legs and I need a bit of a backup. I can touch the shoulder and the horse goes, oh, oh, oh, I know. Shoulders around hindquarters. Or I can touch the inside hind and they, you know, they. They know that. So that's where exactly. [01:10:16] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, totally. Horses are amazing. I forgot all that you said in book. By the time you'd finished your sentence, I couldn't remember that. So it's amazing. [01:10:23] Speaker B: I am going to add one more thing because I have seen, you know, people teaching emergency stops using a whistle. Now, Ben, I know you have this as well. I can be riding around the arena, or even Roman riding around the arena, and if Callum whistles his horses to a stop, my horses stop too. It's a bloody pain. And you Nearly come off the front. And I can do it to his horses too, so. [01:10:48] Speaker A: Haha. [01:10:49] Speaker B: But you know, an emergency voice aid will fail if your horse is truly in flight. And I had it. We had a country show where they were doing bloody tractor pulling 50 meters from the main arena. They didn't tell us. And I was cantering around Bridalist very happily on Boogie who's, you know, super safe. Jet engine goes off 50 meters from the arena. My whistle stop ain't working. Then let me tell you, it failed. I ran back to the gate. [01:11:22] Speaker A: But a bridle wouldn't have worked then, I don't think. [01:11:24] Speaker B: No, no. So I had to use my stick. All right, it was a little bit ugly, but I was not going to run someone over to stop. You know, I had to push that turn to stop down. And all it is is a one rein stop. But using your stick so you're pushing the outside rather than pulling the inside. That's all it is. And then you get control of the situation. Everyone's safe, no one's got run over. Happy days. Off you go again. [01:11:51] Speaker A: Yeah, I have got a really good exercise because again, don't take your bridle off if you're using your reins for your balance. So if you know you were saying Ben, that people bouncing their trot. So one really good exercise to get yourself better at not relying on your hands. Obviously if you're doing this, you're a very long way off taking your bridle away. But a fun exercise for someone wanting to try to see how their balance is. Go up, down, do rising, trot, but go up, up, down, down, up, up, down, down. So you stay up for a beat without using your reins for balance. And when you can do that, then go up, up, up, down, down, down. So sit for three, rise. Stay up for three. So if you can stay standing for two beats and then sit for two beats without slamming on the horse and then try and do it for three, it's really fucking difficult. So you're basically going instead of up, down, up, down, you're going up, up, down, down, up, up, down, down. And try and stay up for two beats and then stay up for three beats and sit for three and see how many. [01:12:52] Speaker C: It's a very good idea. [01:12:53] Speaker A: The fucking best exercise, it's really fun, especially with kids and you. A lot of people I try and get use an X rap or something like that to help them to start with. But when you can do that, you are. Then it's a really fun way of just Improving your balance of anyone? Anyone teaching. If you're looking for a fun thing to do and testing people's balance, it's a really good one. Yeah, my guinea pigs are squeaking. I've left them outside. Love it. [01:13:16] Speaker C: Do you not think that this is. So this all comes back to the same thing, though, that we're just reinventing the wheel. Because if you go to the Spanish riding school in Vienna, all the horses learn everything on the floor. First, there's your groundwork and the riders all have to learn to ride without reins and stirrups and then they graduate to stirrups. [01:13:35] Speaker A: Eight years of something on the lunge, isn't it? [01:13:37] Speaker C: Yeah. [01:13:37] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:13:38] Speaker C: Like so. It just amuses me because it's like, oh, they were doing it in the 1600s, but we've. We've forgotten it and we've come right. [01:13:45] Speaker A: We've lost our way. [01:13:47] Speaker B: It's so old. It's come new again. That's the old saying. Yeah. [01:13:52] Speaker A: So I think it's. I think this is where social media has been a good thing, though, because however much we're like, don't sag people off without it. I wouldn't have heard of this competition without. Of this. I wouldn't be so open. I wouldn't have known of Ben. Do you know what I mean? Like. Like. I almost Wish I was 20 again so I could start my horse journey all over again and do it better. I want to be better. [01:14:13] Speaker B: I have an amazing friend and student who is 83 this year. Sorry, Annette. She got her first horse at 65 and she does all the liberty. She has the most gorgeous canter pirouettes at liberty around her and still rides her horse around bridal us everywhere. She is epic. So it's never too late. [01:14:33] Speaker A: Thanks. I'm not that fucking old yet. Mia, don't worry. There's so many questions. Let's go for one more. Someone's asking if you're taking on staff and is looking for a job. Mia, One person on Ben's Facebook. One I did. I don't think typical social media didn't read the brief and was asking about your worming routine. So, yeah, another. [01:14:56] Speaker C: Another one that fell into that category was, can you ask Mia which plants are poisonous to horses? I was like, you can. You can DM her for that. She'll know. [01:15:04] Speaker B: Actually, I'm really good at that. I know everything. [01:15:07] Speaker C: Yeah, I know you're good at it. [01:15:09] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:15:10] Speaker C: But we cannot go this far off track into a botany lesson. [01:15:16] Speaker B: No, not today. Not today. [01:15:17] Speaker A: Oh, there's so many like I'm 55, had a 13 year break from riding and just about to start lessons, hacking again. Any advice on how to incorporate kind of riding and handling into the more traditional horse world? So, so what I'm going to translate from that is she's obviously getting back into riding, going to traditional riding center to start riding again, but obviously is wants to incorporate learn this as well. How if you are. That's a great question actually from how I'm interpreting it. How if you are going for just your normal riding school lessons and if they're not open to this, how would you advise someone if they, they don't have their own horses, someone like myself of how I learn and everything and you're riding riding school horses, but you can see that it's, you're learning this online. How do people incorporate it without pissing people off? There is nothing worse than going to an old but older riding school that's been there forever and saying to them, oh, do you think you should be training your horses like this? That is going to get you banned. [01:16:15] Speaker C: That's what me and Mia do all the time. [01:16:18] Speaker A: So. And if anyone's met some of the traditional tight riding instructors, that is one way to get someone's backup. So how do we maybe help? Help? Because teaching people to be better is going to help riding school horses. And I'm so passionate about making happy lives because these riding school horses, oh, they just give people so much. For some people it's their one hour of the week they look forward to and it's just I. Riding schools are dying and I really wish they weren't because it's what got me into horses. So I'd love for these worlds to come together. [01:16:53] Speaker B: Yeah, that is really hard. It's a very hard question. I would say educate themselves as much as they can, you know, away from the riding school as well. So have some, you know, really good theory behind what you're trying to do and maybe, oh, it's so hard because I'm like, oh well maybe just try riding without holding the reins so tight. But then you'll get shouted at for having washing line reins. So that's. It's really hard. [01:17:26] Speaker A: Outside rein, half halt, inside lane to outside. Yep. Yeah. [01:17:32] Speaker C: I would say what we were saying earlier is the biggest difference between bridal less and traditional riding. The only difference really is the reins. So even if you have to like speak to your instructor about, even if you have to twist the truth, I really struggle riding with my seat and my legs. I'd really, really like to focus on my seat and my legs. Like, if your dream is to one day ride bridle less, could you have some lunge lessons without the reins? Could you, you know, like, try and tick off the other boxes? Try and. Because if, if by the time you eventually get a horse on loan or have a chance to play around with something to train bridal less, but you've got incredible balance. You really understand your. Your seat and your leg. [01:18:16] Speaker A: Legs. [01:18:16] Speaker C: I'd also say a basic to middling understanding of lateral work is going to be useful for you as well because the more you can move the horse's body, the more malleable it is, the more options you've got for movement once you are bridal. [01:18:34] Speaker A: Because, I mean, riding schools and a lot of places. I mean, I ran riding schools for years and it is hard. You do stuff your way and how you've done stuff and to have some youngster who's read something on social media or someone who's found you through. Do you know what I mean? And going, this is how I think you should be doing it. Yeah, it is hard because you're gonna get people's backs up and it's trying to get the words across without saying that someone's doing something wrong and insulting how they've been doing it for years. Because again, you look at BHS and how they've taught stuff and do you know what I mean? Everyone's just trying their hardest and doing their best. [01:19:13] Speaker B: Fun kind of flip of that. Where last year I provided horses for a very crazy Bollywood job and we stayed at a beautiful riding stables that was a BHS stables. And you know, I met the owners, I met the guys that run it. They were fab. And, you know, I'm. I'm sure they've never, you know, they were amazed that the horses could stand on their lawn in the middle of nowhere, under three actors that were hanging, you know, with their tippy toes on my horse and my horse has to piaffe under the actors and then gallop out from underneath them to kill them. You know, it was mad. And they were leading their riding school horses to and fro, being like, what the hell? You know, they were great, they were brilliant people, but they were a BHS yard and part of the BHS fellowship. And they released a statement on have a Go and how to ride Bridalists. And I was like, you guys don't know how to ride bridal us. Like, I love that you're trying to support it. Thank you. But actually, this isn't really the best post about how to ride Bridalist. And it might. All this is like the complete flip of what you've just said. So. [01:20:27] Speaker A: It was. Yeah, that was then you're embracing it too much. [01:20:30] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:20:31] Speaker A: And like, whoa, the pony. Yeah. Yeah. [01:20:35] Speaker B: So, but that was like a mad kind of crossing of worlds there. And you know, on. On the same thing. If you. If you really, really want to learn how to ride Bridalist, go. Go get your theory and your, like, knowledge as good as you can and then go and find a really good instructor. Easy. [01:20:55] Speaker A: Yeah. Because I don't know if there's any riding schools out there that do Liberty with their horses. So everyone, I'm guessing, each brings their own horses. Yeah. Yeah. And I'm sure there is. I just don't know of any because [01:21:11] Speaker C: where I found so cross so quickly. If you think normal riding school ponies get peeved. Because the difference is, no matter how cross the riding school pony is, the kids strapped to it, aren't they? They're in the saddle, they've got the reins. Liberty's so hard because if you start putting randoms in with them and they really. If the horse is really confused or it's getting annoyed, it just leaves. [01:21:31] Speaker A: Yeah, I've seen it with silly Prune on our tour. [01:21:35] Speaker C: She was trying really hard. Oh. But Ollie and Romeo did get a little bit like, what do you want, woman? Like, what on earth? [01:21:45] Speaker A: One time, Romeo tried to bite her. [01:21:47] Speaker B: Oh, my God, Romeo. [01:21:50] Speaker A: Yeah, he was so angry. [01:21:51] Speaker C: She was just a little bit. She was a little. She did really well and she was amazing and we love silly proof. So this is not being mean to her in any way. [01:22:00] Speaker A: Oh, no, it's nothing we haven't said to her face. [01:22:01] Speaker C: Do you know when. You'll know what I mean? Do you know when someone's whip control becomes faffage and they're just kind of dusting? And she was asking him to lay down and he was just dusting everywhere and he was like, what do you want? Spanish walk? Lay down back look. What do you want? And then he bit her. Well, he tried to bite it. [01:22:18] Speaker A: Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. If anyone wants to see this, our tour. Is there a link to our tour is in the episode description. It's very worth watching because she then does. Does, I think, do the first ever Liberty unicycle with a horse. [01:22:30] Speaker C: Yeah, she does do. [01:22:31] Speaker A: So, Mia, do you have a. What's annoyed you this week? [01:22:35] Speaker B: I think you probably already touched on it earlier. What was that again? I can't even remember now what we've spoken about because there's been so much. But when I was like, that's it, it's that. I don't know what's annoyed me this week. Also when people email in a question when it's on the website, that annoys me. If you've read the website, it actually says it on the website. So don't. I mean, half of me is like that where I'm like, la, la, la. I'll just message them and ask. But equally, if it's something I'm really interested in, I will have researched it to with an nth degree before I go in and ask a question. [01:23:18] Speaker A: So. [01:23:19] Speaker B: So I, I understand I have both sides as well. But like, you know, most of this information's on a website. Read it, don't ask. Silly. [01:23:29] Speaker A: No. Oh, when you're organizing, like when we organize the tour, there is such a thing as a silly question. It's people messaging going, hi, what time does your event finish? Because I've got a dog sitter coming in and I want to know what time to get back to them. It's on the website, like, oh, what time do you do the doors open? Because I want to know how long my journey's going to take from work. Zero fucks given it's on the website. Yeah, just. Yeah. By the time you took to write this message, you could have checked your ticket or the website. So yes. No, that annoys me as well. Benjamin, what has annoyed you, my love? You seem like you're very happy. I don't look. You look very annoyed this week. [01:24:10] Speaker C: No, I'm pretty good. How pathetic people are about my views on cyclists. [01:24:16] Speaker A: That's quite annoying. [01:24:23] Speaker C: I've not, I've not really been that annoyed, really. I. I got my Liberty Team out to work them today and got stopped on six separate occasions and not even. [01:24:32] Speaker B: No, that's not even. [01:24:35] Speaker C: Not in a nasty way, but not even for anything like people just like, [01:24:39] Speaker B: oh, hi, good morning, just come for a chat. [01:24:42] Speaker C: And I'm like, not now. Why any other time? [01:24:48] Speaker B: No, Liberty Team is like the ultimate mental concentration and focus and flow state and if someone interrupts you, it better be important. 100%. I totally feel that. [01:25:01] Speaker C: Even more than that, this part of the day, that time working that team of horses, I'm like, guys, you realize that this is the reason I do all the other bullshit. It like everything else about, like everything else about my job exists just so I can do this. So this is like the one part of the day. This is Me enjoying my special thing. And it's also my job. Like, I'm. And. And that is. I think that. Oh, I'll. I'll refine this a bit more. It annoys me that. Because the main part of my job is performing with that Liberty Team, and because I enjoy doing that so much, people really struggle to see it as me working. It's treated the same way as if I was sat in the living room on my Xbox. If I was sat in the living room on my Xbox, playing a game and someone came in, I'd pause it, I'd stop. I'm like, yeah, cool. Like, I can put this to the side. But, like, not only is the Liberty Team my passion, it's also my work. And just no one in an office or whatever. Not no one, but you know what I mean? When other people are at work, you leave them alone. So, yeah. Yeah, that's what's annoyed me. [01:26:12] Speaker A: Yeah, love it. That'd be quite annoying. Oh, what's the number? Oh, I've got. It's. I don't know why I lent so into the camera. Then. I've got very serious. Can I change my what's annoyed me to what's upset me? [01:26:26] Speaker C: No. That's painful, though. [01:26:28] Speaker A: But, yeah, lit you one of the worst moments ever. So we live in. Well, we're about to move, but we live in, like, there's lots of townhomes in, like, a big square, and right opposite ours is a big patch of grass and people's kind of houses back onto it. And we can walk through across the grass along a footpath, and then we're down at a creek. So we got. I had my collapsible chair on my back, my bright pink sunglasses on, and my son was walking along the path ahead of me alongside these houses, and out of a bush jumped a dog that went to attack him. Teeth is back. Now, I've worked with enough rescue dogs and dogs in my life to know the difference between a dog just jumping up and saying hi or even being a bit spooked to a dog trying to bite your child. I mean, there were teeth, mouth was opened. The only thing that stopped this dog from actually attaching its jaws into my son's arm was A, my son was quick enough to dodge. B, it was on, like, a long lead, so it could go on the grass, but the lead kind of ran out. Yeah. So literally, like, you saw the snap go. And also, my little dog Maverick, who was nearly 14, charged at this dog and went into the dog's shoulder. Like, like, like properly so pushed him off at the pass. So if. If those things hadn't happened, James would have properly got savage. I know that sounds like a lot of things. Oh, my God. But. Oh, my God. In that split second, this dog nearly connected with my son. And this woman jumped up. She was obviously sat sunbathing. Older woman. And I am not joking. I don't. I know it sounds like I'm a very shouty, angry person, but I don't actually do confrontation. I'm always very like, oh, if I upset you, I'm so sorry. Or if I've done. Someone else has done something wrong, I hate it. And I'm like, oh, sorry. I've never screamed at someone like this in my life. Yeah, I didn't know I could scream that loudly like Gregor. And I don't even have shouting arguments. We argue, but we don't. Like, we've never screamed. You know how you see people slamming doors and screaming out of the house? We don't do that. Yeah, I lost my fucking mind. I was like, fucking dog is what. Your dog's just tried to attack my son. Blah, blah, blah. Anyway, her first one was, well, kids and dogs need to live here together in harmony. Well, you can imagine how well I took that excuse. You took that? Yeah. She didn't apologise. I was screaming. I cannot tell you how much I was screaming. Then second, when I carried on screaming, she went, you son took my dog by surprise. Are you fucking kidding me? And then when I said to her, I stared at her, I went, what would you have done if that was your son and that dog had tried to attack? She then went, oh, I'm sorry, but it's. It's not. Doesn't normally do stuff like this. And I was just like. So I'm there screaming. The husband then comes out to wonder what the noise is, sees me because I've had to pick up Maverick because Maverick's still trying to go for this dog. I'm so proud of my dog. Is Maverick a Jack Russell's crying? He is a. Well, we don't know. We found Maverick in a bin, but he's like a Jack Russell cross. One second, I'll show you one second. [01:29:43] Speaker C: He's so little and old, bless him. [01:29:45] Speaker B: Oh, and he was protecting his person. [01:29:50] Speaker A: Oh, he's so cute. Sorry for the YouTube people. If you want to see what Maverick looks like, get him on YouTube. So this is. Yeah. Oh, this is Maverick, my superior fighter pilot. [01:30:04] Speaker B: He's gorgeous. [01:30:05] Speaker A: So, yeah, Maverick. So I was holding Maverick. And the husband came out, and my husband's standing there as well. And he looked at my husband and went, I won't talk to her. I'll only talk to you, to my husband, because I'm hysterical. Yeah, I can imagine how well that went down. So my husband then went, do not disrespect my wife. [01:30:30] Speaker B: So. [01:30:31] Speaker A: And they were just not taking ownership. If they'd have said, jesus Christ, we didn't know the dog had this in them. We are so sorry. We will never let this happen again, I would have calmed down quite quickly. But the fact it was excuse after excuse after excuse, not realizing that this dog is dangerous. So, anyway, I then said to the woman, if I see that dog off a lead without a muzzle on it, I will report this dog to the police and have it destroyed. And I genuinely mean that. You cannot have a dog like that around children. We're in a neighborhood where. If that had been a. There's toddlers that toddle down there. If that had been a toddler, that toddler would have been bitten in the face 100%. And I'm not exaggerating. I've seen dogs kind of go and, like, be spooked, but this dog was trying to bite my son. Oh, God. And anyway, when I said that to her, she went, are you threatening me? And I said, no, my love. I am not threatening you. I am promising you. And she then went. And I was. I was screaming so much that the drunk guy that lives next door came out to find out what the problem was. And he said, what's the matter? And then they went, oh, she's talking about our dog doing something. Well, you can imagine. Then that was it. I kicked off again. You need to take ownership of this. Your dog is a fucking dick. Anyway, I went nuts. So, anyway, I was like, it's obviously not getting through to them. They went inside. I went down to the creek and dunked myself in glacial ice water to calm down, trying not to cry. Jake, my son is crying. My son is hysterical, and he loves animals. So we get back home, and I then burst into tears on Gregor. I was shaking. I was, like, properly shaking. I couldn't, like. And I said to Gregor, I cannot leave this like this. I can't sleep tonight knowing that that dog and they are not taking ownership. I was like, I can't go around there, but can you go round and just see if you can get through to them that this dog cannot be on a long lead or even be in this neighborhood around this many children? So Gregor went and knocked on the door and the. The husband came down and he shut the door behind him, like, looking to make sure the wife wasn't in earshot. And he said, I'm so sorry. And Gregor was like, what? Gregor was expecting a fight. Gregor was like, should I put my wife beater top on and go for it? So when the man had come out, he thought it was just Maverick and the dog having a to do, and I was losing my mind over that. He didn't realize what had happened. And he went, I've been telling my wife, this dog can't be on a long lead. It's a rescue dog. I never trust any dog. You can never 100% trust the dog. Totally on our side. Totally was like, cannot believe it. I'm so sorry. It's my son's dog. My wife needs to realize that she can't make excuses for it. So he was like. And to be fair. And I think they've given it back to the son. So it. In that respect, the husband came round and was like, no, you were totally justified in screaming at her. I'm my wife. But it's so hard, isn't it? It's a prime example of people not. Not seeing. And the same in the horse world. The same with everything. Understanding animal behavior and reading the signs. [01:33:35] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:33:35] Speaker A: If you think your dog is gonna get spooked, don't let it sleep in a hedge next to where people walk. So that's what's annoyed me. People not understanding the cues that any animal will give you when it's upset. Anyway, so that was my. Very traumatic. [01:33:49] Speaker C: That was terrifying. [01:33:51] Speaker A: So James didn't sleep. I'd sleep in my bed that night. [01:33:54] Speaker B: Oh, bless him. That is a big one, Jenny. Yeah. Trying to protect. [01:33:59] Speaker C: I thought Gregor was gonna have a big Scottish punch up on the grass. [01:34:05] Speaker A: I know. So, Ben, I've never seen you looking so shocked. [01:34:10] Speaker C: Well, it's just really scary, like when you see those, like, pictures of kids that have been mauled and stuff and kids get killed by dogs. [01:34:17] Speaker B: Awful. [01:34:19] Speaker A: I know. [01:34:20] Speaker C: Was it a corgi? [01:34:22] Speaker A: It wasn't a corgi. [01:34:23] Speaker C: That would have been for the podcast. That would have been bloody perfect if it wasn't. You go walking in the woods with. You walk in the woods with the bears all the time. He nearly gets cavaged by a dog. [01:34:38] Speaker A: Yeah. Flicky bears. I can. You can predict. Yeah. Yeah. I do not deserve this little dog. [01:34:46] Speaker B: Always gorgeous. [01:34:47] Speaker A: Like just. Isn't it amazing though, from that though? Makes you realize, like, Maverick doesn't have a vicious bone in his body. But how dogs are like your biggest champions and just like, we don't deserve them, these animals. How amazing that he is. I would say he was a third of the size of that dog, if not less, like a quarter. And yet he doesn't think twice about how big he is in that moment. He just protects his human. I mean, how amazing is that? Yeah, at 14 as well. [01:35:20] Speaker B: It's amazing. My dog's trying to catch flies right now. She's just snapping at flies on the sofa. [01:35:27] Speaker A: Well, that fly might be trying to attack you, Mia. [01:35:30] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, I think my spaniel is definitely going to protect me. She's. [01:35:35] Speaker A: She's coming on fabrics. Ever attacked before in the past. She's slightly agro spider, so. Right. [01:35:45] Speaker B: Bless them. [01:35:46] Speaker A: Oh, I feel like we. This will not be the first last time we have you on, Mia. I feel like there's so much. Thank you. You're going to take forward with this. Are you planning another competition? That's. [01:35:56] Speaker B: Oh, this is the biggest question. That's the biggest question that has been asked. So, yes, we're looking for a venue in October to host us. So we need an indoor arena and ideally an indoor warm up. That's what we all love with good seating because we had to turn people away on the day. People were watching it on Horse and Country and then driving to the venue and trying to watch it live and we, we were full. We couldn't fit anyone else in for the daytime show. So we need a lot of spectator space as well and then someone that will let us do it as well. That's another thing. Like, are the venues really going to be up for us to do this? And then we are planning to actually form an association. So myself, Lyla Cansfield, who was our relationship judge on the day for the dressage as well, so we also had two judges. This is where I'm like, oh my God, I've forgotten to talk about so much. But I'll try and keep it short. So myself, Lyla Cansfield, Tracy Duncan and Miri Hackett, all rallying to put together an official association, now have like a yearly membership run, a series of competitions leading up to a championships. And we will be introducing other disciplines too. Just please bear with us because the dressage and the show jumping was hard enough to manage in one day and [01:37:24] Speaker A: it just seemed like such a good, wholesome, really lovely event that was bringing people together in a really like, in a way where it wasn't like, oh my God, it's all about winning. A bucket and a rug. It was just about enjoying yourselves. That's what I got from it. So I just think that that is wonderful as well. [01:37:42] Speaker B: And the horse is having a good time because we can finish on a good quote. When you take off the holter or the bridle, you're left with one thing, and that's the truth. So that is the truth of your relationship, your partnership and your training. And, you know, that is the epitome of that competition. Totally. [01:38:03] Speaker A: Aw, I like that. Yeah, that's very good. That was a bit of Ben, that. I don't know who made it. That was. Yeah, I have a lot of questions. That's the kind of thing you've come out with, Ben. Oh, we love it. We should have, like. We should have a quote off. Yeah. Oh, quite so good. It. [01:38:23] Speaker C: But honestly, Mia, thank you so much for coming on. Thank you for everything you're doing and have done for the horse world. You're. Yeah, I can't wait to see how this develops. And maybe if you can hold a bloody competition on a date where I'm not performing, I'll come. Oh, yeah, no, I wanted to enter the last one and I looked at the date and I was like, ah, I'm literally performing that day. But one day. [01:38:46] Speaker B: Yeah. Yeah. Well, maybe October, because show season's a bit quieter. [01:38:50] Speaker C: Yeah, I'll be free in October. [01:38:53] Speaker B: Yeah, that would be good. [01:38:54] Speaker A: All right, well, I'll let you two sort out your bloody diaries off air. [01:38:58] Speaker C: Yeah. [01:39:01] Speaker A: But, Mia, all that is left to say is just carry on doing what you're doing. Good luck. Thank you. And quite frankly, shut up and ride. [01:39:12] Speaker B: Oh, thank you guys so much. Thank you. Thank you, [01:39:19] Speaker C: Sam.