'It’s Not Just Logs in a Field' - Helen West

[00:00:00] Speaker A: Foreign. [00:00:08] Speaker B: Welcome to the Shut up and Ride podcast, sponsored by the brilliant, wonderful Charles Owen. Can't say enough wonderful things about them. So we have a guest today, but I'm not going to introduce her just yet. I'm going to say hi to the wonderful, handsome Simon. Groove. How are you, Simi? [00:00:25] Speaker C: I'm good, how are you? [00:00:27] Speaker B: I'm actually. I'm not all right. I've got a bad back. [00:00:31] Speaker C: Oh, no, you said about this. So have you actually slipped a disc? [00:00:34] Speaker B: No, he said it's partially. I don't know, it's like bulging and so it's really bloody painful. So I'm sat, actually. I can see myself sitting really crooked, trying to save it, but it's at its most painful just standing up. I don't know if anyone's had this. It's the lower at the bottom and actually moving and stuff is nowhere near as bad as just standing and doing, like, the dishes and like making kids pack lunches. It's just, it's crippling. It's like I can't stand up straight. So actually sitting. I will be in pain. Well, I am in pain, but I've taken some quite hefty painkillers and what is it? I'm gonna go there. Early doors. What is it about? The stronger the painkiller, the less likely you are to ever do a poo again. [00:01:15] Speaker C: Codeine's really bad for that. [00:01:17] Speaker B: Oh, my God. It's like you're getting punished for having no pain, isn't it? [00:01:21] Speaker C: Yeah, well, there's always a comeback, isn't there? It's a bit like the. The weight loss jabs. I always think there must be something that is not right with them because we've got to suffer somehow, haven't we? You know, you can't do anything. Nothing is easy in life. [00:01:37] Speaker A: Can. [00:01:38] Speaker B: I feel like this podcast has taken an early turn. [00:01:40] Speaker A: Oh, yeah. [00:01:40] Speaker B: Well, we'll introduce you. All right. [00:01:42] Speaker A: I was being really good and quiet. I was waiting for my introduction and I'm like, oh, gosh, do I speak yet? [00:01:50] Speaker B: No, we'll introduce you. Right, so the only way to introduce this lovely lady who I spent a ridiculous amount of time with with in Thailand is to sing I Like a Pina Colada and doing Dance in the Rain. Because I got to know this lady over several. What was meant to be one, and I think it was eight pina coladas later in Thailand. She is brilliant, fun. She is a asset to the world of eventing. She is going to be the first lady to do a five star course If I have my way about it, she is the wonderful Helen West. Welcome to the podcast. [00:02:28] Speaker A: Thank you so much for having me. I'm very excited to be on your podcast. [00:02:34] Speaker C: Welcome, welcome, welcome. [00:02:35] Speaker A: Thank you, Simon. Thank you. [00:02:36] Speaker B: Obviously. Well, I got to know you. I knew who you were more in your like, very official roles when you were leading British eventing and we've chatted at courses. But like I say, I got, I got to know you in Thailand because we went on like some tourist trips. [00:02:50] Speaker A: We went adventuring. [00:02:52] Speaker B: It advised me. [00:02:53] Speaker A: Awesome. [00:02:53] Speaker B: We did. [00:02:54] Speaker A: We. We did. [00:02:56] Speaker B: And then sat on a beach and realized you were one of those people I could just chat to for hours, non stop gossiping. And the pina coladas flowed quite, quite heavily. [00:03:05] Speaker A: They did. [00:03:05] Speaker B: But I'm guessing you two know each other in a work sense. Do you guys know each other? [00:03:11] Speaker A: We know each other in a friend sense. We've known each other for. [00:03:15] Speaker C: Yeah, we've known each other for a very, very long time. Yeah. Dance floor. [00:03:20] Speaker A: He moves. Yeah. Yeah. [00:03:22] Speaker C: I first met Helen a hunt. I think it was a hunt ball, a ball of some description in Devon and she was having man problems at the time. [00:03:32] Speaker A: Not a lot changed and we just [00:03:34] Speaker C: danced a lot about. And then she got over that and now she's married. And I also always remember watching her before that. I knew who she was and she was very successful as a young rider and. Yeah, and it's been great watching her doing her thing and all her riding stuff and seeing her as CEO of British Eventing. I was very proud of her when she got nominated for that or she got selected for that and got the job and yeah, she's had a very exciting career with the course designing as well and. Yeah, very proud of her. [00:04:10] Speaker A: Actually makes me feel a bit emotional. [00:04:13] Speaker B: Yeah, [00:04:17] Speaker C: You have done some amazing, amazing things. There's no doubt about it. [00:04:21] Speaker A: It's really, it's really weird when you, you feel like somebody else, when somebody actually says that, you sort of sit here and listen and think, really, God, is that me? It's like, oh, yeah, I suppose I have done that. But it, yeah. It doesn't ever feel it to you at the time, does it? It's one of those wonderful things in life. I think it's that like that imposter syndrome type thing. You sort of watch everyone else and think they're doing amazingly and you never think that about yourself. [00:04:48] Speaker C: Absolutely. It's definitely, it's definitely a human thing, isn't it? And we need, and we need to celebrate, celebrate ourselves more. More, says me. [00:04:55] Speaker A: Honestly, I Mean, I look back and I think it's something also in our industry because especially in the sport of eventing, because, you know, the. You have the highs, you have the lows. Realistically, unfortunately, there seem to be more lows than there are highs in terms of your sort of trajectory eventing results wise. And it's very easy to sort of, you know, I think I certainly used to get disheartened if things didn't go quite as plan. And, you know, now I look back and I think, oh my God, Helen, like, why did you worry so much? And I think it's a bit of a perfectionist streak in a lot of us. But actually I sort of also wish I'd celebrated the highs more at the time because you don't realize quite how special they are and you sort of just move on to the next thing really quickly. And actually you need to really flipping shout, you know, not shout from the rooftops, but you need to celebrate those because that's. Yeah, that's what we're doing it for. [00:05:57] Speaker C: Definitely. I remember years and years and years ago, Belton event, I was doing the Under 21 Young Rider Open intermediate class, I think it was, and Matthew Wright was in it with. What was that colored horse. [00:06:11] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:06:11] Speaker C: Part pilot. It's an amazing little horse. [00:06:13] Speaker A: Really cool. [00:06:13] Speaker C: And. And I was in the. After the dressage, can you believe? And. But I had one fence down show jumping. And so I dropped to second behind Matthew and because Matthew was really fast. So like, you went inside the time. I went inside the time as well. Amazingly, you wouldn't believe it. [00:06:28] Speaker B: Jenny, was this. What is this? Some parallel universe where you have entered? [00:06:33] Speaker A: So me. How was Speedy Pants? [00:06:37] Speaker C: Yes, but I. But I. But I finished second and I lost the class because I had a show jump down. And I remember being so completely. Nothing else could stop me thinking about the fact that I had a fence down and how rubbish it was that I didn't win. And oh God, I've done so badly. And actually looking back on it, that's a massive achievement to have done that, like to finish second in that. In that class, in that. Because it was a really good class. [00:07:00] Speaker A: They were really competitive classes. Yeah, yeah. [00:07:04] Speaker C: And at the time I was like, oh, God, I'm so rubbish. I'm so. And now I look back and I was like, no, you really weren't rubbish. Come on, mate. [00:07:11] Speaker A: Exactly. [00:07:11] Speaker B: Do you think, Simi, obviously you're. We're all in our 40s. This is definitely the 40s club podcast. Your double clear at Burley last year do you think if you'd had that double clear on that horse in your 20s, you'd have enjoyed it as much, do you think in your 40s, do you think it was still the same feeling, do you think? [00:07:32] Speaker C: No, it's a completely. I said, I think it's a completely different thing. As in, I now know how well. Cause actually I qualified that horse, I qualified it five star, but it never got there because she went lame and she ended up having babies and that kind of. So I never actually got there, but I remember thinking, I've made it. This is easy. I'll go and do a five star, I'll do burley with her, and then I've made it. You know, I'm going to be competing at this level forever and ever. Amen. And then it took me, I think it took me another 12 years after that horse went wrong to then go get to four star again. And so. And that was, you know, I was only 30 then. So, like. And now I know how incredibly hard it is to get a horse to that level, find one to produce it to that level and for everything. For it to be good enough for a start, for it to be sound, for it to be. Have the right attitude, all that kind of stuff. And I know how hard it is. So Burley for me was like, all the stars have aligned. This never happens. And I know how incredibly lucky I am that this has happened. So bring it on. Amazing. And that's why I was so stupid and over the top and. Well, not over the top, but just. I didn't shut up about it for ages because rightly so, what I'm saying [00:08:49] Speaker A: now is [00:08:51] Speaker C: if I win a B100, I'm like, yes, brilliant. [00:08:56] Speaker B: Get that hoof pick and that bucket and wear a baseball bag. But it's like. And obviously we all know Lucinda Green very well, but she said to me on more than one occasion, I don't know if she said this to you guys, that she almost regrets winning badminton at 19 because she had no fucking clue a what an achievement that was or how to appreciate it, or almost a little bit of luck, do you know what I mean? All of these things and that successes and how hard it would be. Obviously she won it six times. The woman's a legend. But it's a very odd mindset to hear that, isn't it? That she almost regretted it doing it that young because she really. She says even she went for training and people were like, what? You won badminton? [00:09:37] Speaker A: You're shit. [00:09:39] Speaker B: And she obviously isn't but do you know what I mean? It's a very interesting sport, isn't it? Because our careers go on so late as well, whereas most people are reaching their peak in their 20s. [00:09:50] Speaker C: Did you find that Helen, because you were really successful as a young rider. You did really well, didn't you? And I mastered. Did you find that then there was a bit of a love and you didn't appreciate it. [00:10:00] Speaker A: Absolutely. So I mean looking back again, and I didn't realize it at the time, I think I did two junior teams, I did two young rider teams. One gold at the young rider Europeans. It was same, same year as Piggy. We were on the goal medal winning team together in Varam and I worked. [00:10:20] Speaker C: Sorry, remind me what that, what was that horse called? [00:10:22] Speaker A: That was Chaos. Little grey horse. Chaos. [00:10:25] Speaker C: Great game. [00:10:26] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. And, and absolutely. I mean back then at the time, you know, I'd done Blenheim, I'd done Bramham because the young rider national championships used to be at Bramham. And I remember, you know, I, I [00:10:42] Speaker C: actually had like it was hardcore. [00:10:44] Speaker A: It was hardcore. [00:10:45] Speaker C: We had to go. Yeah, we had to go before the seniors. Yeah, we did in the three day event but still long format so we [00:10:52] Speaker A: had to do obviously our roads and tracks and steeplechase and you know, it just, it was hardcore. And the seniors used to get to watch us and think oh my God, what are they doing and why are they riding it like that? And actually then they stood a chance a bit later on in the day, but it was seriously hardcore. And I mean and I had not like I come from a background of non horse. Well I say non horsey parents. My dad has never sat on a horse in his life. Completely non horsey. My mum had been horsey but years and years and years before I ever came along. And it wasn't a thing in her life so it was always a bit sort of I'd rock up at these events and my dad would drive me and, and I'd walk the course with my dad. And I remember as we sort of went up the levels and we got to sort of like Bramham and Blenheim and then I very. I mean who does their first five star at Burley? I mean that just shows you how little sort of I knew and the network around me at the time. But I remember dad walking with me and saying, you don't have to do it if you don't want to. I was like that that's great. Thanks for that. [00:11:54] Speaker C: Bless him. [00:11:55] Speaker A: Brilliant advice. Thank you so much. [00:11:58] Speaker B: So let's not hire your father as a public speaker. [00:12:01] Speaker A: No, no, no, no, no, no, no. But, but no, you're right. Like, you know, at the time, you know, I'd set myself these goals and, you know, I was going to be at badminton by the time I was, I don't know, 19 or whatever that looked like. And it, you know, and guess what? It didn't happen. And actually, you know, I went from having, having a degree of, you know, support around me with that junior and young rider program, and it was the very, very sort of beginning of the inception of like world class to then just once I was out of young riders, I just fell off a bit of a cliff, to be perfectly honest. You know, I was based, still based in Devon, a little bit out of it, and it was flipping tough, you know, and I rode for a lot of different owners, had to make it pay, bought my first house when I was 21, had a mortgage, had all this other, you know, had to, had to ride what I was given because I needed to pay the bills. And looking back, I sort of cringe because I think, crikey, some of the horses that I was jumping around intermediates on, like, with the greatest respect, probably would have been better suited to going around a 90 or 100. But I was scared to say to the owners because I, I was worried they'd give the horse to someone else and I needed that income coming in and that, you know, again, I'd say to any sort of younger rider now sort of coming into it, please, please, please, you know, think of yourself. And it's easy to say because at the time, you know, but I, I definitely fell into that cat, into that category and, and I look now, and I think with, you know, like, with the inception of the FEI, the World Under 25 Championships that we're seeing this year at Mill street and then at Cornbury next year, you know, that sort of initiative. Brilliant. Because I was definitely one of those. [00:13:53] Speaker C: Yeah, brilliant. Because yours is not a story that is unfamiliar. Like, I think everybody has it. [00:14:00] Speaker A: Yeah, exactly. Exactly. [00:14:02] Speaker B: Yeah. How do you. Sorry, this is just a left field question, but as a young person who has that pressure with owners, the ones who don't come with ready made horses and have to take rides that, I mean, you can't say no to some owners if you want to keep them, can you? You have to. Like how, how? I don't even know if there's a way around that. If the owner thinks it can do more and you don't and you, like, obviously you do have to keep safety in mind. But that's, that's one of the problems, isn't it? There's no support network for a rider who wants to go, I can't afford to lose this horse. But that, like, it almost needs like a funding, doesn't it, to go shit, if you're going to be short this month because you've got to drop an owner because you don't feel safe. Like, for some riders there is no safety net. [00:14:49] Speaker A: And that's quite sad and it's quite scary. And I think there's a massive education piece there maybe to be done also with the owners and trying to, I don't know, you know, have some sort of network whereby the right people perhaps have a little word in their ear to just try and educate them. [00:15:12] Speaker C: Yeah, I think that, I was gonna say, I think with the, like, mentorship is, or mentoring is really important. Like, it's not just about having a good coach. It doesn't have to be a coach either. You need somebody that is experienced, that knows what they're doing, that can mentor you, can go along with you. And, you know, people are quite happy to mentor people without being paid too much or being paid. And, you know, if you can have somebody on your, on your team, on your side, who's looking out for you and if they think, okay, that horse is actually not really top notch or it's not what it should be, and then, you know, you've got somebody in your corner to help you discuss that with the owner and say, look, you know, maybe this actually isn't quite got what you think it's got because, because a young person saying that to, to an owner, they're like, well, you know what you're talking about. And, and more often than not, they do know what they're talking about. [00:16:03] Speaker B: Some of these riders are so talented, aren't they? And that's why maybe the owner might be misled because they make the horse [00:16:09] Speaker A: look really better than it is. [00:16:11] Speaker B: Some of these youngsters. Yeah, they're so. [00:16:13] Speaker C: Yeah, that happens quite a lot. [00:16:14] Speaker A: It does, yeah. [00:16:16] Speaker B: And I could imagine you two doing that quite tactfully, as it were, because you guys are the goodies at eventing. Do you know what I mean? [00:16:23] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:16:23] Speaker B: Like, I can imagine you could be quite tactful with an owner if needed to be. [00:16:27] Speaker A: Yes. [00:16:28] Speaker B: And help out a youngster. [00:16:29] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:16:30] Speaker C: But to be honest, I'm, I'm now at the age though, where I, if I thought something was dangerous, I would say now for, for, for, for, for someone else, maybe. [00:16:42] Speaker A: Yeah. Absolutely, yeah. And actually it's really interesting. [00:16:46] Speaker C: Just goes to show like I'm, I'm 44 years old and I could do with a mentor myself and I'm being serious. [00:16:52] Speaker A: Yeah, no, no, 100%. I can see that. And I, and actually talking about the mental kind of role, it makes me realize so now with my sort of obviously transitioned into various other different sort of roles within the industry, but one of them being as a cross country course designer, I have actually been incredibly fortunate to have Captain, Captain Mark Phillips really, I feel, sort of mentor me and sort of, you know, actually look out for me and give me opportunities and, you know, give me the opportunity. Initially it was when he was designing Burley to go and walk and learn, you know, and more recently sort of with the European Championship at Blenheim, I was assistant course designer there and that and even, you know, when I'm designing sort of, you know, obviously in my own right, Mark will quite often come and if I want him to walk a track with me or just come and give me his thoughts or sense check and that is so, so, so vital. And actually I look back now at my riding career and think, crikey, if I'd had that then how much that would have helped me. And I think that is a really key, key thing actually is that I'd never sort of. That light bulb hadn't really come on until you said about the mentor role. [00:18:14] Speaker B: So. [00:18:15] Speaker A: Yeah, how. [00:18:18] Speaker C: Okay, no, no, no, I was agreeing. [00:18:22] Speaker B: So, Helen west, course designer extraordinaire, how did you go from riding at that level to going, do you know what? I want to design courses? Like, how do you even get to that transition? Because let's face it, it's quite a male dominated industry, the designing of courses. No, no. A little testosterone heavy. [00:18:46] Speaker A: Yes. [00:18:46] Speaker B: And it is in the show jumping world as well. It is not. It's not just eventing. It's all incredibly intimidating. [00:18:54] Speaker A: I can imagine it can be at times. [00:18:57] Speaker B: There is yet to be a woman design a five star that. I mean, obviously we had bitten and we'll get to that during COVID but one of the, one of the top five stars. I don't think a woman's designed it and I know that. Is that a goal of yours to design? [00:19:11] Speaker A: Absolutely. [00:19:11] Speaker B: To do a five star trend? [00:19:12] Speaker A: Absolutely. It certainly is Jenny. Yeah, definitely. But yeah, I guess so. There was a sort of stage in between me going from my sort of riding career to the designing and actually it sort of follows on quite nicely from the sort of conversation about riding for owners etc. And. And I had a real sort of crossroads moment where I was probably. Well, no, I wasn't probably. I was. My. I was in my mid-30s and I had. Had had a nasty fall at home with a young horse. And then I had a really nasty rotational fall actually at Hambledon, at the coffin there and on that horse that day. I remember thinking to myself in the start box, I don't want to be going intermediate on this horse. And it was the first time I'd ever thought to myself anything negative in the start box before I set off cross country. And I was very lucky. I, you know, I was fine. The horse was, you know, was. Was absolutely fine. And he walked away from it, but it was an. It was a nasty one and it really. I was very battered and bruised, sore, but it really. I got in the lorry, long trip back to Devon and I thought to myself, I don't ever want to put myself in that position again. And I got home and actually, ironically, my. My mum, who was obviously alive then, had the Horse and Hound open on the breakfast bar and she'd circled jobs, she'd circled Clinton, Devon Estates were looking for somebody to come in to manage at Victon, and Mum had circled that. And she sort of put my cup of tea down the next morning and said, right, here you go, I think you should apply for this. And I was like, what, Mom? I've never organized anything in my life, you know. She was like, yes, you have. You organized my 70th birthday party and we had 100 and whatever people you can. You can organize things. That's brilliant. Okay, Mom. Okay, bye. So. [00:21:12] Speaker C: So anyway, God, what legend. [00:21:14] Speaker A: Yeah, so I. So I did, because I thought, actually, do you know what, it's local. I've known, yet known Victon all my life. I could potentially do something like that and then still have a handful of horses that I could still be riding. Not, you know, not a massive string, but I could have maybe three or four horses and let's see if that. What that would look like in that world. So I did apply for it. And actually, really, you'll laugh. I rocked up for the interview and I'd never really been for an interview, to be honest, because guess what? I've ridden horses all my life. So I walk up at this very, very posh estate office and sort of, you know, buzz on the door, oh, hello, you know, here for the interview, and I get ushered into this side room and this. I didn't realise this was the first part of like the Interview and I get ushered in. And the pre. Interview, absolutely, honestly, you wait, it gets better. So I was told, sit down. And I was given a letter of complaint that had been received. And I had 10 minutes to come up with a response to this letter of complaint. So I remember this because it was about. It was about the toilets being left in a disgusting estate. And I've always remembered that. I've always remembered that. It's kind of stayed with me. So anyway, I wrote this response saying how, you know, terribly sorry I was, that, you know, the cleaning company had, you know, most of the staff were up with norovirus or whatever it was, and really, you know, it was no excuse, but please, you know, accept a complimentary voucher for the use of the arena and blah, blah, blah. So 10 minutes goes. Then they come and collect me out of this room. And then I get ushered into the boardroom and talking about male dominance. Jenny. Okay. They pull back the boardroom doors and I've got six men in tweed sat on the other side of a vast boardroom table. And I sit the other side and I'm like, oh, my God, what is this? [00:23:18] Speaker C: Like, what am I Talk about intimidating. [00:23:20] Speaker A: Yeah. So I had like Lord Clinton, Lord Clinton's son Charles, who is now the Lord Clinton. John Varley, estate director, the then head of forestry, the finance director. I just had this, this sea of men on the other side of the table. And they grilled me for about an hour and I came out, I thought, oh, my God. Like, I. I just. I don't know. This is for me. So anyway, off I went and, you know, fine. And then they get in contact a couple of days later. Oh, yes. You know, really like you. You know, we'd like to come. You'd like. We would like you to come back for another interview. We'd like you to put together a presentation for a five year business plan for Victon Arena. So I have to come up with a five year business plan and then do the first ever PowerPoint presentation I think I'd ever done in my life and stand up in front of all these men in. [00:24:14] Speaker B: Oh, my God, I bet you wished for chat GPT. [00:24:18] Speaker A: Chatgpt. Honestly. So I went through that and then. Yeah, okay. Then I get another call back to say, oh, we'd like you to come in to do some psychometric testing. And I'm like, wait on a minute. Can I just check? I'm not going for a job in like MI5 or MI6 here. Like, this is. Yeah, So I had to go in and have like three lots of psychometric testing. Then I get a phone call to say, we'd like you to have a telephone consultation with an independent consultant. And I'm like, man, this is. So anyway, eventually I get offered the job. At that point, I didn't know that I actually wanted to do the job, to be honest, because I thought, geez, what is this job? So actually going in and starting the job, I was like, whoa. And I got into course design purely because I went into Bicton, looked at why it was losing money, you know, very crudely, what can I do to increase income and reduce costs? One of the big costs was at the time they, they used to pay. And I'm by, please, by no means am I saying the Willis brothers are expensive. But they had the Willis brothers come in and design and build every cross country course that happened at Victon. So from like your pony club, your hunter trial. And I was just like, man, this is bonkers. Like, I've ridden to five star level. I'm sure I could probably go and put some cross country fences out and save quite a chunk of money. And that is the honest. That is how I got into it. And it was really interesting because it kind of as I sort of scaled back riding career because the first couple of years I was there, I did still keep competing. And I remember one of the first events I organized at Victon, I was riding as well and designing, and it was like, yeah, man, this is, this is a bit bonkers. So I did for about a couple of years and then I sort of scaled back the riding. [00:26:21] Speaker C: I was gonna say, I bet that was a struggle doing it. [00:26:24] Speaker B: It was. [00:26:24] Speaker A: It nearly killed me. It nearly killed me. And I remember, and I remember thinking to myself, like, optically as well, should I be riding a track I've designed that, you know, in a competitive environment? That's a bit weird. And actually, you know, it's interesting, the fei, you can't do that now. So you can't compete around a track you've designed. But nationally be you still could. So, you know, it's an interesting one. So as I kind of scaled back on the riding, I kind of was doing more of the designing. And I got the buzz I had from riding cross country, from designing. And I remember the first international I did because I sort of went down my BE accreditation. And then the first FEI event after I'd done sort of the first FEI seminar, I went to my first sort of international. I got that sort of real like butterfly sticky kind of. But that adrenaline and I just, yeah, I got really hooked on it. I absolutely just. And I am a little bit of a. Well, I am a perfectionist by nature, but just so want to get it right and understand and, and I think because I've been competing up and up until pretty recently, still had a sort of feel for the flow and how it would feel when you're on board and what that would actually feel like to ride through. But. Yeah, but in a nutshell, that's how I sort of got into that. And then I sort of. It got a little bit tricky because I started getting asked to design at other venues and of course it was really, you know, ultimately I was working for the estate full time for Bicton and it was. And actually, you know, I'm forever grateful to the estate because they were so massively supportive in that part of my kind of journey. And actually they could have turned around and said, no, you're not going off doing it anywhere else. And actually they were really supportive. They were like, well, no, within reason, like as long as you're doing your job. But they enabled that and it kind of built up, built up from there really. But yeah, but that's, that's how I sort of got into it in the first instance. [00:28:32] Speaker C: I just want to go back to what you were saying there about when you were riding it. It helped you to, you know, to, to design it because you had an idea of flow and you know, being, being a rider kind of, it's fresh in your mind. Do you think that it's, it has a negative impact that you don't ride as much now? Because you don't. I mean, you don't go cross country anymore. [00:28:54] Speaker A: Do you know, it's really interesting. So it's a, it's a real double edged sword. So I now could never go back. I am too old. But I could never go back to riding at top level because I see it now through completely different eyes and I know too much. So I wouldn't want to. I wouldn't want to, is the honest truth. I think it helps. It doesn't. I don't think it matters that I'm not currently sort of galloping across country at like intermediate and advanced level because I. [00:29:33] Speaker C: Well, no, because Phillips is a prime example, classic example of that, isn't he? [00:29:37] Speaker A: Absolutely. [00:29:38] Speaker C: You know, he's designed some of the most fantastic, fantastic horses. [00:29:42] Speaker A: Absolutely. [00:29:43] Speaker C: When he's not and he's not ridden for years. [00:29:45] Speaker A: Yes. It's that understanding of how horses travel, the dynamics of how they move, how they read fences. It's watching so many horses and their reactions and how, you know, different material, like, for example, brush, like how much it influences how much further out from the fence they will land. There's. It absolutely helps to have ridden to a good level, but I don't. I don't think you need to be doing that concurrently with the designing because I think the designing knowledge sort of almost overtakes you get to a point where what you've learned from your designing, the writing sets you up in really good stead for it. But actually the sort of designing knowledge takes over and I think it kind of needs to, because there's so much stuff that I see through my design eyes now that I wouldn't have wanted to see through my riding eyes, if that makes. If that makes sense. [00:30:48] Speaker B: Oh, I have so many questions because I think I'm. I've. Oh, so many because obviously I've ridden evented, but also I've worked at the top events in the world and there is such a huge difference between. Between the two. Oh, we've lost. Simon, are you still there? [00:31:06] Speaker A: Simon? [00:31:06] Speaker C: Sorry, I pressed the wrong button. [00:31:08] Speaker B: That's okay. So from a. I'm going to start at the top level and then I'm going to ask questions for the people listening because a lot of the people listening, like, what is it, 73% of British eventing members don't compete above 100 or some statistic like that. [00:31:21] Speaker A: Absolutely. [00:31:21] Speaker B: And it's a huge number of them, like 80. Something like. I think they've just put out stats like 86% of their members are women. But yet so much of the top end of the sport and course designers is dominated by men as males that. [00:31:34] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:31:36] Speaker B: Oh, my God. So much to dissect. But when you're building a track where the likes of the Mr. Greave come and jump, or Mr. Greaves, as he's known in the yard, or the likes of, I don't know, Andrew Nicholson, I think would be terrified in design a track for. [00:31:52] Speaker A: Or. [00:31:53] Speaker B: Yeah, how. How much do riders intimidate you? Influence you? How much can you change like that? Just that dynamic. Because I just remember a story very quickly about Mark Todd. I can't remember the course. It's so long ago. And apparently there was a fence on the course where the ground line was rocks, like big stony bits. There was a ground line and I can't remember if they're fake or real. And loads of people were making this big hoo ha about these rocks had to be moved and they got and they were all standing around this jump. And Toddy came along. As he was walking the course, he was like, what's going on? He'd already walked it a couple of times. And they were like, toddy, don't you think this bit of the fence should be moved? And he was like, I hadn't even noticed it. Just like. Because he was so concentrated, he knew it was a galloping fence. Do you know what I mean? It's just so interesting, like how a rider might be windy about a fence and then put up a stick. [00:32:45] Speaker A: And it's very. [00:32:45] Speaker B: How do you deal with the top riders? [00:32:47] Speaker A: And it's very specific. Through the ears or the, you know, through the years of the horse they're sat on that day. So it might not even be something that they particular, but on that horse on that day. And as a rider, that's how you walk the track. You know, that is 100 how you walk track. As a designer, you know, you're designing through hundreds of different horses and riders ears, you know, it's. It's a very different beast. But I think certainly it's something I've had to become more resilient about, I would say, because I do give a. And I do care deeply and I care because I want it to be a good experience for the horse. I'm. I don't care. Oh, I said I don't care what the riders think. It's not that at all. But riders will always have their opinion and see it through their horse on that day. I always want to be fair to the horse, and I want them to be able to read the question and to produce good pictures and for the horse to come away a better horse. So, you know, make no bones. I, you know, initially like criticism. I. I'm. I'm quite sensitive by nature, so I take criticism very personally. And I would say pretty early on I had to learn that I needed to have thicker skin. I have to say, having done the BE job, I have now got thicker skin. And that has probably helped me with my design now because I have learned to be a bit more robust and resilient because actually it's a tough, you know, it's a tough gig and you feel massive, massive responsibility, like the weight of the world is on your shoulders and you've got all these horses and riders jumping around, of course, that you've put out and you deem is fit for purpose and you want to have done the best possible job that you can. And there is an element of. It's really Interesting. And you talk about, like, the sort of gender thing with this, and I would say, I can see why, if you look at a lot of the designers, they would be of a slightly arrogant ilk. And I mean that in the best possible light, because you have to be very confident and sure in what you're doing, and you have to be able to stand there when people question it or criticize. You know, you have to be able to be short, secure in your. Oh, God. [00:35:10] Speaker C: Yeah, we had that. We had that last. Last year at Bicton when there was a meeting, wasn't there? [00:35:17] Speaker A: That's right. [00:35:17] Speaker C: Last year. [00:35:18] Speaker A: Yeah, it was last year about the distance of the two star. Yeah. [00:35:21] Speaker C: And a lot of the riders were [00:35:22] Speaker A: like, oh, it's too long. [00:35:23] Speaker C: Is too long. [00:35:24] Speaker A: That's right. And I was like. And. [00:35:25] Speaker C: And I was like, yeah. [00:35:27] Speaker A: Oh, my God. [00:35:27] Speaker C: And I was like, thinking, hang on a minute, guys. [00:35:29] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:35:29] Speaker C: Like, it's all within the rules. [00:35:31] Speaker A: The parameters are. [00:35:32] Speaker C: And you were very good. [00:35:34] Speaker A: You. Yeah, yeah. You know, you stood there and battered it back and, you know, and you have to be, you know, confident to know that what you've done is right. And. And that's. That's the thing. And. And it's really interesting because I. I do feel when I'm in that role and I'm wearing that hat, I am confident in what I have done and what I am then saying. When I was at be, for example, doing the role I was doing there, and a very, very difficult time after pre, you know, post Covid organizations in, you know, sadly, no money, IT project has absolutely obliterated reserves, et cetera, et cetera. I had to make some really tough, tough calls and do some really unpleasant, you know, things that I didn't really want to, but I had to for the organization to survive. But at times, I felt like kind of jeopardized my integrity and what I really believe. Whereas when I'm standing there with my design hat on, I am totally in that zone, and I am totally. I would not put something out that I was not happy with. If I was. If I thought about it more than three times, I would go back and revisit it and be like, right, hang on a minute. I'm not happy with this. Change it. So it's really interesting that it's that sort of confidence that, you know, when you truly believe that you've done the best you possibly can. Yeah. So. But sorry, but going back to the whole. You're right. You know, so many of the designers are men. I think that historically you know, if you look from where inventing's come from, you know, military, you've got that army influence. I think if you look at how it all began and you know, the type of person that got involved with putting on a three day event, it was very much that military. So I think it is historically quite male dominated. And. And another thing I always sort of find quite fascinating, like when I was competing, I never, ever, ever felt like it was a disadvantage in any shape or form to be a woman. You know, men and women compete on completely equal terms. Like it just. And actually it was one of the wonderful things about the sport. Sport. But interestingly, when you go into it on the other side, like as an official, it's so male dominated, it's like, wow, where did that come from? And, and you know, and I think. [00:38:11] Speaker C: Why is that? [00:38:12] Speaker A: Yeah, I don't. Why is that? Honestly, I think there is an element of it that it is. Honestly, it is a, it is a really tough gig and you have to, you have to be a bit arrogant or believe very strongly that you've done that. What you've done is. Yeah, yeah, totally, totally. [00:38:34] Speaker C: Jenny is incredibly strong willed and she's not male. [00:38:39] Speaker B: What makes you say that? Oh, I cry all the time, Simon. Have you not met me? Yeah, be more me. [00:38:43] Speaker C: Fuck you, be more Jenny. [00:38:46] Speaker B: So I've got the stats here that British Eventing have just released. [00:38:49] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:38:49] Speaker B: 93% of their youth program members are female. [00:38:53] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:38:54] Speaker B: 67% of the board are now women. So that's got to be a change over the last year. But 78% of British eventing members are female. [00:39:03] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:39:05] Speaker B: But it doesn't say what the top level percentage is. Male to female. [00:39:10] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:39:10] Speaker B: Which I'd be quite interested to. How many women. Because I do think as well, however much I would love it not to. When you hit our age, yeah, hormones make your confidence go to shit. But also having kids, unless you're Janelle Price or Izzy Taylor or these like piggy or these like wonder women, it really does give your confidence a bit of a. Bit of a knock and that kind of preservation of going, shit, I need to not die to keep these humans alive. Whereas I don't think men get that switch. But the course designing thing feels like a really natural progression for women. [00:39:48] Speaker A: Yes. [00:39:48] Speaker B: Because we're empathetic as well. You can design a course that can be. Because we're tough as well as empathetic. And you could design a course with, with that without the arrogance in mind. You know what I mean? And you Could. [00:40:02] Speaker A: And that's something that we bring to the table. [00:40:04] Speaker B: You're an amazing course designer. [00:40:06] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:40:06] Speaker B: And I think women could add a lot to it. I just think. [00:40:09] Speaker A: Yeah, that'd be good. To encourage one of the first FEI sort of seminars I went to Switzerland, I rocked up at FEI headquarters. And you queued up sort of to get your, like, lanyard and your little pack from the girls behind the table that were handing them out. You know, I queued up in the course design line and said, oh, hi, you know, come to collect my lanyard. And she looked at me and she said, oh. She said, you're in the wrong queue. The grand jury's over there. And I was like, actually, I'm not grand jury. I'm not dressage judge. I'm a cross country course designer. And you could see literally, like, the color drain from her. And she was like, oh, my God. I. I can't believe I said that. I just assumed I was like, yeah, because I'm a woman, that I'm a dressage judge. And it. That is why. That wasn't that long ago, relatively speaking. It is, It's. It's. It's interesting. But, you know, it makes me all the more determined to. Actually, I think you're right, Jenny. I think there's. There's sort of. There's things that I could bring to the table as a woman, which I think are good and strong and positive for the future of cross country course design. And actually, do you know what? I'm sort of. It makes me even more determined to champion that rather than sort of feeling like, oh, God. Actually, do you know what? Because you could have. I could have easily. I could have easily sort of turned into a wilting flower and be like, oh, no, no. So I'll. You know what I wrote to Priest George dressage. Do you know what? I'll go and be a dressage judge. It's like, hell, no. That just makes me more determined because if you think, you know, if anyone. Yeah. If there's a bit of a no in there or a bit of a roadblock, I'm, like, talking. No, no. I'm going to show them. Like, I'm getting in there. So I think actually it makes me more. More determined to. [00:42:04] Speaker B: I love that you will not be bullied. No. God damn it. [00:42:08] Speaker A: No. No. [00:42:10] Speaker B: And then obviously you. You took an inhale of breath when I said the word Andrew Nicholson, then lots of people do. I love Andrew. [00:42:17] Speaker A: Yes. [00:42:18] Speaker B: But I have to say, my goodness. He. He. If. If Andrew said, you'd done a good interview. It was like a gold star. [00:42:25] Speaker A: I tell you. [00:42:26] Speaker B: Because he would certainly tell you if good interview y are there. Do you have riders? You're like, oh, what are they gonna say? Yeah, can you say? Would they take it and go, okay, [00:42:37] Speaker A: so there's, so there's Simon Greave. [00:42:38] Speaker B: I've heard he's a writer. [00:42:39] Speaker A: Oh, he's so demanding. He's so demanding. He. To be fair, like, to be fair, like I said, I think I, I kind of learned from the get go that I couldn't start listening to every individual rider's kind of gripes or, you know, their personal. You have to. And it's. And to be honest, it's the same. It's the same in anything. It's the same with the course design. I would have like two or three people that I highly, highly, highly respect. And if I went to any of them and they said, no, you've got that wrong, Helen. Like, you've got that wrong. I would be like, whoa, okay, fine. Okay, change it. It's wrong if they said, no, it's absolutely fine, Helen. I think you're right and I think, you know, they'll read that, they'll come around. But yeah, whatever. I would be confident that it's fine. And, and funnily enough, Andrew Nicholson comes into that category because I know when I sort of first started designing, I did and Andrew was still riding. I would put my brave pants on and go up afterwards and say, oh, how did it ride Andrew? You know, any feedback is really welcome. And he was brilliant. He was really constructive. Interestingly, I remember when I first, during COVID obviously I was still at Victon working for the estate with my organiser's hat on and we put our name in the hat and we ran the Bramwoman replacement and then we ran the Burley replacement. And I remember, if you think with hindsight, they had. Because of COVID they had not had a spring campaign at all. They hadn't run. We then ran the Bramond date in June and Andrew had walked. The forum was like, you've overcooked it. There's too much top here, blah, blah, blah. It's too strong. [00:44:34] Speaker C: I remember, I remember this. Yeah, I remember this very well. [00:44:37] Speaker A: Yeah. And I was absolutely mortified because he would be one of those that I had on a pedestal, I still do, but that I really wanted. [00:44:46] Speaker C: And he didn't hold back either. [00:44:47] Speaker A: No, he didn't. No, he didn't. He really didn't. And I remember taking it very personally, very personally. And, you know, genuinely really upset about it because I put my absolute all into this. And, you know, and interestingly, it wasn't actually when you sort of. I spoke to him afterwards and I was like, actually, was there anything that you would have changed before they went? Is there anything you thought was dangerous? No, absolutely not. It was more that he felt with the terrain of Victon and the accumulation of fences with quite a bit of top on, it would potentially tire the horses at that stage, especially as they hadn't run in the spring. And having sort of talked to him afterwards and analyzed it and what have you in it was great. It was really constructive. But the way he came at me at the time, I was just like, whoa. Like, really? And it was interesting because I, you know, I was genuinely really upset. Really more in fact, I remember. Sigh. You were there, but, you know, Eric was tding one of the classes with Eric Winter and someone else. [00:45:51] Speaker B: Can we just. For the non initiated into the eventing world, TD is technical director. [00:45:57] Speaker A: Technical delegate. Technical delegate. [00:45:59] Speaker B: Delegate, Sorry. Yes. [00:46:01] Speaker A: So they. Yes. So that's like a. So nationally, under British eventing, we have a ta, which is technical advisor. And internationally, FEI is a technical delegate, but they basically come and walk the track, assess the track, make sure they're happy with it, and pass it as sort of, you know, obviously fit for the competition, and then they are there to oversee the sport for the entirety of the event. And I was chatting, you know, afterwards, and Eric said to me, God, he said, that was nothing. You escaped that really lightly. And I was like, oh, mad. Okay. So he was like. He was like, you need to stop being so precious. And I was like, okay. So that was again, one of those moments where I was like, yes, I've got to become more resilient. I need to have thicker skin. Okay, but do you know. And you know, I don't want to sort of. I don't want to sort of. Well, I never enjoy bringing this up, but we had, as everyone will know, we had a fatality at BICTER and in 2024, you know, absolutely horrifically, Georgie Campbell lost her life in a rotational fall. And, you know, that was obviously my first experience of that in actually, sadly not my first experience in that with my organizing hat on, because we actually had a fatality at Victon prior to that with somebody who was using one of the arenas for show jumping higher. And I'd had to deal with that, and that was somebody I knew very well. So. But obviously with my course design hat on that it puts a totally different perspective. And like, whoa. I literally was like. I remember being sat down at the fence with Jesse and you know, Jesse, bless him, he was like, oh, my God, Helen, how am I ever going to be able to, you know, ride another horse? And I was literally sat there and I was like, how am I ever going to be able to design another cross country course? I can't. Like, it just pulled the very, very floor out from underneath you. And one of the first people to ring me was Andrew Nicholson. And he rang me that night. I can't remember if it was that night or the Nielsen on it, but he was one of the very first people to. So he rang me and he said, am I right? And was like, not. Not great. He was like, helen, you did nothing wrong. There was nothing wrong with that fence. We've all jumped it hundreds of times. The distance was spot on. He said, do not doubt yourself. It's shit. Sometimes you have to accept shit. Things happen and you can't. There's no rationale to it. And I said to him, yeah, but I'm looking for a reason. And was it this and was it that and should I have this? And he was like, stop, just stop. He said, if there was anything wrong with it, he said, I would tell you. He said there wasn't. He said, it's a sick accident. He said, and I don't know how you square that off in your head. He said, but you have to. He said, because you have to move on. You know, we want you to be designing and we're all behind you. And I was like, wow. And that probably, like so many people contacted me and so many of the design fraternity did, but the Andrew call, and funnily enough, actually Oliver Townend. Oliver rang me and he was like, helen, I wrote it, it was spot on. Please don't doubt yourself. You know, we love your tracks. Please don't dumb them down. Don't this, don't that. And I was like, okay. And yeah, so going back to those sort of people, those handful of people that really, really mean something to you in terms of what they're. The input they're giving, that would be an example of that. [00:49:48] Speaker B: And obviously going, because you've touched on it with the Georgie Campbell incident and Jesse, her husband, I mean, that was national press. I mean, it was in the Daily Mail, it was everywhere. And I've had a few quite well known people who like to gossip come to me and go, oh, well, there was something wrong with that fence. There was this, there was that. Because aren't people horrible. Sometimes they just bake for. [00:50:13] Speaker A: Never cease to amaze me, Jenny. Sadly, I'm afraid. Yeah. [00:50:18] Speaker B: So, yeah, and I, I didn't know you that well and I just said to you over a pina colada and I said, helen, can I be brutally honest? Because I don't say things behind people's back. I've been told this. Was there something wrong with the fence? And I was quite odd. Like I was a bit brutal about it. I was like, because this is what I'm being told and I think you should know. But even now people are saying that. So let's put it the record straight. [00:50:40] Speaker A: Yeah, no, absolutely. [00:50:41] Speaker B: And Jesse even said, yeah, so absolutely. [00:50:45] Speaker A: No, I'm absolutely not. That fence had been jumped. We worked it out sort of. I had pulled the stats on it. I think it was something like 263 times I jumped that, that particular fence, I jumped at three star level. So the level before I even had jumped a very similar fence there, a two star level. So in terms of the. And I mean that exact fence because it had been there for probably three seasons, might even have been four and you know, we always think, you know, nice big chunky log horses read those so well and generally speaking they do. But the one thing that it has taught or you know, taught me is that sometimes the consequences from something that statistically would happen so infrequently so actually really kind of quite safe in terms of profile of offence, but actually the repercussions can be more serious than something that actually is much, much harder sometimes. I think when something really scares riders, they ride it amazingly well. This actually wasn't, it was really quite innocuous, you know, and it's like how, you know, how do you ever get your head around it? I mean, One thing I 100% look at and I think, well, hey, you know, if it had been fungible at the time, it could not have been fungible. So whether you can make a fence fungible depends on the weight of it. It's all down to the weight of the log, which is why relatively speaking, most of the time your frangible, your mimed fences are much lighter material. They're more like sort of 8 inch, 10 inch poles. They're more like your show jumping type poles because it's all to do with the weight of the, of the rail of the pole to be able to be light enough to make it frangible. So when you use what I call. [00:52:47] Speaker B: And again, can we just explain what frangible is? Because we do have a lot of people listening to this who aren't inventors, of course. [00:52:53] Speaker A: Of course. So frangible means that the fence is defined formable and it collapses. So obviously cross country fences are sort of historically solid and they are fixed. Frangible technology means that the fence releases, so it might not fall completely to the ground, but it hinges and it releases. So it reduces the height of the fence rather than your traditional fence, which obviously stays in place. So that particular fence at the time, I could not have made frangible. The only two frangible technologies we have at the minute are the British eventing reverse pin and the MIM clip, which is a Swedish mats has designed. And a lot of fences you will see now have got either a red or yellow MIM clip on them. But like I say, you couldn't have made that log fungible with either of those devices because of the weight of the log. It was a very, very long, big, heavy suspended log. With the advancements in the technology and what we've sort of seen in more recent years, and I'm sure 100% that will have been a catalyst to try and speed up obviously how we can make that type of fence fungible. Now we have the ability to be able to hollow core out. So a big log like that you could basically split in four. [00:54:23] Speaker C: Oh, wow, that's cool. [00:54:25] Speaker A: And take the middle section out completely and fill it with foam, put the log back together to take the weight out of it. So you could potentially now fit that on. And that's something that, you know, we are beginning to see a little bit more of, I think, I'm pretty sure. Don't quote me, but Eric had one at Badminton, might have been last year, I think, but that is something. And like, I know sort of certainly Stuart Buntine is now heading up the FBI risk management committee and he's been doing some very sort of funky stuff with different types of the frangible fences have been up until now, quite limited in where and what you can use them for. And I think they're really sort of pushing the kind of parameters now on trying to make more interesting fences frangible so that you don't see. Like the last thing si you would want is sort of, you know, going out cross country and every fence looking like a showjob with narrow timber and looking the same. You know, one of the things we love about cross country is the variety and, you know, the sort of bigger timber and different materials and different pro textures. So it looks like it's proper cross country and hopefully moving forward, you know, we're Beginning to learn more as to how we can achieve that authentic look, but with the modern technology. But it's not an exact science, you know, Stuart did. [00:55:59] Speaker C: Was it, was it Thorsby last year? I think virtually every single fence was a frangible fence. [00:56:03] Speaker A: Yes. [00:56:04] Speaker C: On the Thorsby track. Was that right? [00:56:05] Speaker A: That's right, yes. [00:56:07] Speaker C: And, and it, and it was a great, it was a great track. [00:56:09] Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah. No, it was. No, absolutely. [00:56:11] Speaker C: They did a great job. [00:56:12] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:56:13] Speaker C: And it, and it looked like a proper cross country course. It was, you know, you weren't going around show jumps. [00:56:18] Speaker A: Exactly, exactly. And I think, Jenny, when I, we were over in Thailand for the Asian championships, I can't remember, it was either 15 or 18 of the efforts were frangible. It was a very high proportion. So, I mean, it is, you know that. [00:56:37] Speaker B: But do you, this is, this is a, both of you, though, just very quickly, like would a whole course being frangible and would, does that encourage dangerous riding? No, no, I don't think it does. [00:56:50] Speaker C: No, I don't think it does. [00:56:51] Speaker A: I don't, I don't think it's, I don't think putting my riding hat back on. I don't think I would ever look at a fence and think, oh, it's frangible, it doesn't matter, I can gallop at it. I, I just don't, Yeah, I don't [00:57:03] Speaker C: think, I have never thought that in, in all my years because I've heard, never seen a frangible fence and been like, and been like, oh, that's all right because that'll fall down. [00:57:12] Speaker B: Yeah, I have heard that argument from a few of the top riders. I won't name any names. No, some of the, the more training ones and they've gone, no, well, don'. Frangible. Everyone will just ride at it too fast. But I, I, I don't think I've ever ridden a show jump fast because I know it comes down well. [00:57:27] Speaker A: And that would be slightly, that would be the kind of counter to that argument. You know, I remember Sam Watson presenting at one of the FEI seminars a few years ago. And I, I'm sure it was, I'm sure it was Sam because he was obviously there with his equ. Ratings hat on and he said, you know, if you had sat the first part of, if you built like the first part of a coffin as a show jump, hell, you know, people are going to slow like, you know, a show jump will come down like you're going to put them in a different shape canter to come into that to try and leave the pole up than you are. If you galloping to a solid log, you know, you, you just are. Yeah. And you know, the, and, and again, you know, I've seen there's been incidents where that's the other thing. You can't guarantee the frangible technology. It' a seat belt. You know, more often than not it would save your life. It won't always. And sometimes it can actually make it worse. And, and there is that argument as well. And there is, it is not an exact science. You know, they won't always deploy. And I, you know, I've, I've seen a horse rotate over a fence that was, that was mimed and it, it never activated because the horse didn't hit it with enough force. But it was a complete rotational and it landed on the rider. So people need to be careful and they need to, they just need. You will never remove all the risk from the sport. You won't. You know, you get on a horse, you're taking a risk 100%. From a risk management perspective, we have to mitigate that and we have to move in the direction where we are trying to make the sport as safe as possible. You know, but don't ever think that you can make it totally safe because that's, that's not a reality. I believe that, you know, you, you, you get on a horse. I hate to say it, that you know that horrific weekend that we had, the Georgie fatality. There was a dressage rider that lost their life somewhere in a different country. Yeah. In walk. I mean, come on, like, it is just. Yeah. Doesn't bear thinking about. But it's, it is the fact [00:59:41] Speaker B: as a rider. Simon, what did that, the, the, the, did Georgie passing do to you? And in the top level, like, did it put any thoughts in your head like how, how is the top rider doing the most dangerous level? What was it like for you? I don't think we've ever discussed it on here. [01:00:04] Speaker C: So, so I didn't know Georgie not particularly well, but I did know her. And, and it's happened a few times now where there are people that I know that have, have lost their lives on a cross country course and it, [01:00:18] Speaker A: it, [01:00:21] Speaker C: it's not easy. It's not easy at all. And you know, and we're all this really close knit community. Everybody knows everybody, even if it's just a little bit. And I suppose the great thing about it was that it brought everyone together and everyone was supporting each other and you know, it's like. And I run Helen as well, but it sounds like Lots of people did and there was lots of support and that's what's so great about that community. But yeah, of course it makes you think about things, it makes you question what you're doing. But then it would be the same. Like, I had a really, really bad fall at Heartbury and actually you kind of made me think about it, Helen, when you were in the start box saying, I'm not really sure I trust this horse. [01:01:05] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:01:06] Speaker C: And I had the same thing with that. I was like, I'm not really sure I trust this horse as I was in the start box. And then I had a really horrendous, horrendous fall. I mean, how I didn't kill myself, I don't know. And. But it just sits you up, makes you kind of think, think about things and. Yeah. So hasn't really answered the question properly, has it? But it's. Yeah, it's. It's not an easy thing. And, you know, we all know that there's a serious risk, what we're doing and it's just, are you prepared to. [01:01:37] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:01:38] Speaker C: And keep going with that? [01:01:39] Speaker A: And on that side, you know, that horrific, horrific day, and I sat down at that fence with Jesse and Georgie's mum for something horrific, like five hours, and we talked about. Just about everything. Just about everything. And Jesse, Jesse said to me, he said one of his biggest fears was what people would think if he carried on eventing because of the perception and, oh, my God, you've lost your wife in an eventing accident. How can you possibly carry on doing that? But he said, that's all I. That's all I know, Helen. That's all I love. That's all I want. He said, we all know the risks. When we set off at that Starbucks, we know the risks. He said, and here we are, like, I know the risks. And I was like, wow. And I said, Jesse, 100%. Everybody will be rooting. They want you to be doing this. They want you to do what you love. They want you to do what Geordie knows you should be doing. But it was like, wow, you know, it just. And you know. And like. [01:02:42] Speaker C: And you were absolutely right because that's exactly what happened. He had so much support and still does, still does have so much support and he dealt with it unbelievably. He's an incredible guy. [01:02:54] Speaker A: He is, absolutely. [01:02:56] Speaker C: And, you know, I'd like to think that if, if I was to, to, you know, pass away due to a cross country accident, I would hate for anyone to be like, oh, my God, I'm not going to do it because. Because of. Because of. That's happened to Simon. I would hate that. No, because, you know, I love it. I love. I love eventing. I love going cross country. I'm really. I'm eventing tomorrow. I'm really looking forward to it. Should be really fun. But there is that risk that potentially something could go wrong and I'm prepared for that risk. And, you know. Yeah. So like I said, I don't. I wouldn't want anybody to think, oh, God, I can't do it because it's because of. That's what happened to Simon. Or, you know. But, yeah, I'd hate that. [01:03:43] Speaker A: Like, although the sport should. Just shouldn't be here, you know, that would be. [01:03:48] Speaker C: Yeah, absolutely. You know, I'd hate supper as a result of something happening to me. [01:03:53] Speaker A: Yeah. No, yeah. [01:03:58] Speaker B: Oh, don't say stuff like that, Simi. I'll worry about you tomorrow now. [01:04:02] Speaker C: Oh, no, I wouldn't. Because I'm gonna have a great time and if something really bad did happen, then I was having a great time doing it. [01:04:08] Speaker B: So I will get really, really drunk on your behalf and do a TikTok. Jenny, can we do some pina coladas? [01:04:15] Speaker A: Can we do some more pina coladas, please? [01:04:19] Speaker B: Sign me pina coladas. [01:04:22] Speaker A: I rang my husband, Andrew. So when I was in Thailand, apparently I only rang. Well, apparently I only rang him three times, so he rang me the rest of the time. But apparently the three times I rang him, I was like, darling, I've had seven pina coladas. Apparently all the three times I rang him were alcohol related. I was like, I don't know what you're saying. I don't know what. I don't believe that. I don't believe that. It's just. You were the first person I thought of when I was guessing, a bit merry. There you are, see? [01:04:53] Speaker B: Thank you. We did drink way too many. It was. It was an excellent day on the beach. Our day off. [01:04:59] Speaker A: That was fabulous. [01:05:00] Speaker B: So I. We have been going for an hour, which is just like. I've just. Honestly, I just enjoying listening to you so much. Let's have a lot of people listening to. This will not be of the Simon Grieve five star superstar capacity. And what advice, because I often. This is one of my equestrian pet peeves. Watching people walk a course, no matter what the level on their mobile phone, it drives me nuts because I'm like, whatever the level, this is dangerous. You should be paying attention. And they're like, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Because. Okay, this is me going on a [01:05:36] Speaker A: bit of a rant now. [01:05:37] Speaker B: Because you take a lot of time to lay those fences in a way that is helping the horse. There is a tree that you have to fence around that is put there. You're not going past that tree for no reason. [01:05:48] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:05:48] Speaker B: They have put the fence around that tree, especially at the lower level to set you up for that fence. And you're there going, all right, Kathy, should we go out tonight and have some wine or. All right, Susan. What. What should we buy that horse for? You should be looking at the tree and how far away it is from the jump. Because at any level accidents can happen. [01:06:07] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:06:07] Speaker B: Or you've set something slightly. There's a bit of a hill there that you've. That is going to help the horse 90% of the time, but might make the fence watch looks really easy. Make it the difference between 100 and a novice. Oh, that's a small fence. We'll have you read the ground. Because actually that's why that fence is in a novice. [01:06:23] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:06:24] Speaker B: So that is my pet peeve. Or they're calling their bloody dog that's fucked off and is chasing a cow [01:06:29] Speaker A: out of the field. Jenny. And not worst pet peeve. Okay. And I promise you this is real. Yeah. People actually turn up and don't walk the cross country course. They just look on the cross country app. I've had people come to Bicton and they're like, oh, well, we know Bicton. We've been here before. We've just looked at the app and you're going this way round. And I've looked at the course. How. How can you go and ride cross country around a course that your horse has not seen when you haven't walked the terrain and walked the fences yourself? Like, I, I find that mind blowing. [01:07:10] Speaker C: That gives me a flashback to years and years and years ago when I was at Purston Manor Horse trials, which hasn't happened for a long time. A few years. [01:07:18] Speaker A: You're aging yourself. [01:07:20] Speaker C: And, and, and, yeah, and I was. And Mark Todd was going down to the start of the novice cross country course and I was coming back and I. I don't know whether maybe he was joking or not, but he said, he said, is it the same as last year? [01:07:36] Speaker A: He probably wasn't. Sorry, but that was marked Todd. I mean, I'm not talking about Mark. [01:07:40] Speaker C: Well, pretty much the same as last year. Yeah. And he was like, oh, because I haven't walked it. I don't need to walk it, do I? [01:07:44] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:07:45] Speaker C: I'll be right. Dope. [01:07:49] Speaker B: Very smart, Todd. He could go around bad material. [01:07:52] Speaker A: He could go around with a blindfold. Yeah, yeah. [01:07:56] Speaker B: Without the horse. And still be sort of. [01:07:58] Speaker A: The other thing I would say is. And I don't know if you think this side, but this is something I. I again learned with benefit of hindsight. The first time you walk the track is 100% the most important, just in terms of initial reactions, et cetera, et cetera. I look back and I think the number of times I walked it and I knew your gut instinct. Trust your gut instinct. I knew at the time what was right for me and my halls and how I read it and what I would do. But then I made the fatal mistake of listening to other people and Chip, Chip, Chip and all this and all that, and, oh, my God, like. And it fried my brain because I was like, oh, I hadn't thought of that. And oh, gosh. And there's a really fine balance because I'm not saying that you don't listen to anything else that anyone else might say or input, but you have to really pay attention to your gut instincts and what you. You know, your horse. You're the only one that really knows your horse. Don't get swayed too far from what you think initially, 100%. [01:09:12] Speaker C: I remember being up early one year, and I was second out on the cross country, and it was. It was kind of like. I think it was one of the best up to that point. It was kind of the best I'd been at a big event because I had no. Because before, when I'd been. I'd watched everyone else. I'm like, oh, my God, they put five Strats in there. They did this there. They went on that angle there. Maybe. Should I be doing that? And whereas with this, there was. There was none of that. I had to just go back and discuss it. Just going to go and do it. And the horse went. Went clear and was amazing. It was. And had a great time. And. And then I came back and I remember being interviewed and I had other riders asking me about. I was like, oh, so how many slides did you put here? And I'd be like, oh, well, I put six, but you probably want to go four on this. But it. But it worked for us. [01:10:03] Speaker A: I love it. [01:10:04] Speaker B: I love it, I love it. Yeah, you're definitely not an if in doubt, leave it out. Yeah. [01:10:10] Speaker A: Yeah. Nothing wrong with adding. Si. Nothing wrong with adding. Yeah. Do you know, actually, I. So I design a little bit in the States now, and it's really interesting. Just like culture, like the culture is so different. And one of the events I do at the four star level, I watched, I had. I don't know, last one of the last event I did there. I had. I mean, there was a country mile in between. I had. I think it was like mimopsa to a mim corner. And then there was this like triple, triple brush. And I had, I'm gonna say off the top of my head, it was like five or six and then four or five. And I watched them walk and walk and walk and walk and walk and walk and walk. And it wasn't like I tied them onto a completely straight, like. Like you could put in a little bit of a bend, like you can make it what you want. And a couple of rides came. Like, do you mind just asking a question? And I was like, no, no, no, sure, you know, far away. How many strides is. Is that? And I said, whatever you want it to be. Or I said something like that, or I've no idea, or something a bit flippant. And they looked at me like, oh, my God, crazy British woman has come over and she doesn't know what. And I said, I'm sorry. I said, I don't mean it facetiously. I just mean it depends on so many factors. I said, it depends how you. What pace, you know, what pace you're traveling over the first oxa. It depends whether you put in a little bit more of a bend. It depends on this, it depends on that. Like you. [01:11:33] Speaker B: It depends if you're Simon having a wave to the crowd as he goes past. [01:11:37] Speaker A: But. And that's where I think we have to be so careful because, you know, you can get too prescriptive and actually, you know that being able to react and trust and the distance will be there. And actually, you know, crikey, you could land the horse, could peck. You know, you've got to be able to react to what happens and what you feel. And actually, you know, you can have a plan a. Of course you can. But then, like, you say, so you come back and you're like, well, I think when I walked out, I was planning to do four, but actually I ended up doing six. But it worked really well for me and my horse. Great. That's cross country riding. Like, that is the whole point. That's what it's about. Is about. Yeah. Anyway, I will stop doing my Lucinda Green. That's a Lucinda Green. Yeah. Soapbox moment. [01:12:23] Speaker B: But I remember walking, doing a film with Francis Whittington around Badminton. And, and he, and he was saying, and he was a great cross country rider. Still is a great cross country rider. But he was saying, I don't have an A and a B and often don't walk the distances because I have to be able to react. And that's what a lot of. If you get too prescriptive and you're like, oh my, you can't then help your horse get out of trouble. If you're like, well, I don't know what to do. If it's not a four strides or a six strides or whatever, you've got to react and go on gut. And a lot of the top show jumpers are very similar. I speak to Daniel Coyle, who is an incredible Irish rider, and he's just like, Jenny, yeah. I was like, what striding do you do down through that related distance? Especially when they're like 8 to 10 or 12 and people are walking those lines. He's like, jenny, I have no bloody idea. I ride off feel. And I'm like, some people don't have that ability to ride off feel and they need to be prescriptive and counting. But some of these show jumpers are very like that. They go, yeah, it's eight. But I'm only saying it's eight because that's what everyone's saying. I actually won't count it. I'll just feel it. I'm like, that is pretty amazing. [01:13:30] Speaker A: That is very. [01:13:31] Speaker B: Especially when you're coming down every single stride. [01:13:33] Speaker A: When you're Cantry down to 160. Yeah, yeah, yeah, Fuck that. [01:13:39] Speaker B: Yeah. So you are Bicton. When is it? When can people come to Bicton? And Simi, are you going to Bicton? [01:13:48] Speaker C: I am. [01:13:49] Speaker A: Right answer, Simi. Right answer. So no. Do you know, I'm really, really excited. I'm really excited for this. So the May international is the 2020. No, it's the 28th to the 31st of May. So it's the last weekend of May. She's. Yeah, I know. And. And actually it is during half term, so. And we've got the nations cup, so we've got the Great Britain leg of the FEI Nations Cup. So that's very cool. So the four star short, three star long, two star long. We have the Young Rider National Championships. They're at the three star level. And then we've got the juniors at two star level and we've got the ponies as well for the first time. So that'll be a little. [01:14:32] Speaker C: Because you've got the whole lot, the whole set. [01:14:34] Speaker A: That'll be really. Yeah. And I've never actually designed a pony track and it'll be a separate track [01:14:40] Speaker B: because I think you're meant to admit that out loud. [01:14:42] Speaker A: No, I haven't. I haven't done a pony track. Genuinely. No, no, I'm really excited about it. It's a pony. So learning as we go here. Pony P2 star, which is 105. So I was like, okay, right. But actually, again, you know, with Victon sort of terrain, actually, you can make, you know, 105 look quite. It'll look big enough. So. Yeah, so. And it's. No, it's shaping up to be. Shaping up to be a great spectacle and we've got lots of other. Like we have the Knights of Middle England. They come and do their stunt riding and their. What's the word? Oh, goodness me. Oh, jousting. Jousting. Thank you. The jousting and the stunt riding, it's really exciting. Like really, really, really cool. I was like, whoa. When I first saw them, I was, yeah, blown away by that. And the Shetland Pony grand national. [01:15:40] Speaker C: And it is. It's such a fabulous place to go to. Victon. It's. It's beautiful. And it's like. It's. It's actually worth, like, because. And I didn't realize that you're having literally every single level, aren't you? Which is great. And as in the Pony City, I can otherwise. Juniors, two star, three star, four star. That's amazing. And lots of other stuff going on. It's a beautiful place to go to. It's a great place to have a walk around, go and watch. You can see the best in the world there. And it's literally 10 minutes from the beach. So it'd be worth going for a short weekend, a little mini break. If you're not riding. Come and watch. It's a brilliant. It's a brilliant event. [01:16:14] Speaker A: We want it to be fun for everyone. [01:16:16] Speaker B: I also used to find as well, watching. I mean, watching you go around badminton, Simon or Burley or anything like that, it's just like. It's so untouchable and unrelatable, but it's a spectacle. Whereas I think so many people miss a trick at watching the top riders ride at a lower level. Because you can learn from it. You can really learn from watching these riders. I used to watch riders. [01:16:40] Speaker C: You actually learn more. [01:16:41] Speaker B: You learn, I learn f all. Watching you go round a five star, I'm like, I don't know how you do it. It's terrifying. You're a God. But When I watch you go round a two star, I'm like, oh, okay. That's how we rode that corner. That's the line. That's the canter. Even watching riders, I remember watching, it might have been Victon, actually. Chris Burton coming down ahead of Bicton in a light seat. Didn't move the jump just got in his way. Then I watched about five other people of lesser ability coming down it, hauling the horses out, sitting down the hill, and I was like, that's how you ride that fence. Just watching him ride down a hill was so impressive. So I just think, like, you can just learn so much from going to an event that isn't a five star. And, yeah. Thank you so much for coming on. [01:17:34] Speaker A: You're so. [01:17:34] Speaker B: It's been so lovely chatting to you. What is your advice as a course designer for anyone riding at maybe like, the lower levels that the 90s, the hundreds, the novice, what's. What's the biggest takeaway they can get from a course designer? [01:17:48] Speaker A: Oh, so crikey. God, that's where to be honest, Jenny, it's really tricky because [01:17:59] Speaker C: I've got one. [01:17:59] Speaker A: Okay. [01:18:00] Speaker B: Oh, go on. [01:18:01] Speaker C: So, like, just from our conversation today, so, like, we need to trust our course designers that they are doing the right stuff. You know, Helen's been talking about how she. She's got a backup team, as in her mates that also course design or her colleagues that also course design mentors, et cetera. So, like, she hasn't just put these fences out on a whim and thinking, oh, I'll hopefully that'll be all right. It's been. It's been so scientifically done, like, and it's. And anything, any concern or any worry, they all work together and they all. Which to me, that's actually given me [01:18:36] Speaker A: quite a lot of confidence, honestly. So the hours and hours that you obsess about it, like, it's totally disproportionate, to be honest. But, like, genuinely, I can imagine you've gone through every sort of what if scenario, this blah, blah, blah, this type of horse, this approach. And like, I say, you know, if you have a concern of. Certainly I. If I have a concern about something, I think about it more than twice. If I think about something three times, I'm like, go and revisit it, change it. It not happy with it. There's an awful lot of layers and process that go into it. And then you've had, you know, your TD or your ta, they've come and walked, you know, fei grand jury, there's so Many pairs of eyes. You know, very often now I think at the top level like Mark Phillips would go and walk a lot of, you know, the sort of four star tracks in this country. There's been so many people look and conversations that have gone before you set out the start box on that day. [01:19:31] Speaker B: So trust in the process. [01:19:33] Speaker C: Trust the process. [01:19:34] Speaker A: Exactly. And in terms of advice, trust the relationship you have with your horse. Doesn't matter what level you're at, but you've got to that point, you know your horse better than anyone. You have that special bond with them. Look after them and they will look after you. And when you're walking the track, if you sort of think to yourself, why on earth is this here? Well, why not sat there? You know, there's a. Just pause for a second because there probably is a reason for it. You know, like you alluded to Jenny with the sort of Christmas trees especially, or not even necessarily a Christmas tree. It could be a tree in the park, but we haven't just randomly plumped them there, you know, they are there. Or if you think something, well, that's in the way. Well, why is it in the way? Because the designer is obviously not intending for you to go where that tree is. So what's that telling you? Yeah, but also remember you're there to enjoy it. You're there to enjoy it. You're there to have fun. Have fun. That's what we're there for. Don't ever lose sight of that. [01:20:34] Speaker B: I have go and watch some of Symi's recent videos with you whooping as you're doing your cross country schooling and you can just see Buster's ears are forwards and he's having so much fun. [01:20:46] Speaker A: And that's why he's having fun. [01:20:48] Speaker B: I did because you know me, Simon, I'm a bit of a swiper. I don't. Hey, guys. Oh, no, no. But I love those videos. That's a bit of me. That is more of those, please. More Siamy whooping. And Buster's ears. I never get bored of that horse's ears. [01:21:03] Speaker C: Like they're amazing. I'm really looking forward to it. He's having his first run tomorrow and I'm really enjoy. Should be really fun. [01:21:12] Speaker A: Yeah, good luck. Certainly will enjoy. [01:21:14] Speaker B: Tradition on this podcast is to ask our guests what's annoyed them this week. Do you have anything that has irritated you? Got your backup. It is a time to vent your anger at the world. Helen West. It doesn't have to be a question. [01:21:33] Speaker A: My aging process, Jenny, and the fact that seemingly. I thought I had 2020 vision. I had my thing through to renew my HGV driving license, which I don't even need because I drive a three and a half tonner with one horse these days. But I thought it's a useful thing to keep hold of. So I went along, had my medical, went for my eye test and I couldn't see a flipping thing. And I now have a prescription for glasses. Glasses Jenny, that has got my go. I thought my vision was the one thing that worked. [01:22:04] Speaker C: Too late. [01:22:07] Speaker B: No, look at this. I am wearing the glasses. And by the way, hats off to people who have had to wear glasses their entire lives. What the fucking hell do you do in the rain? [01:22:17] Speaker A: Oh, God, I haven't got to that yet. I haven't worn mine enough. I've got all that to come. I'm a glasses virgin. I mean, come on. [01:22:27] Speaker B: Well, it's. There's a whole world ahead of you and yes, it's very. [01:22:32] Speaker A: It's. [01:22:32] Speaker B: Yes, I. I have a newfound respect for glasses wearers, I can tell you. Yeah. Open the oven, the steam comes out, I can't see a bloody thing. No one tells you these things. [01:22:41] Speaker A: Well, luckily, I only need mine for distance, so hopefully there won't be any cooking or anything like that involved, which. [01:22:46] Speaker B: Good as you're a course designer. Everyone who has entered for victim is breathing a sigh of relief. [01:22:55] Speaker A: Sorry, I've got glasses now, guys. You'll be fine. [01:23:00] Speaker B: Simi, what has annoyed you this week? [01:23:04] Speaker C: Well, I was talking about HGVs on the way here. It took us about four hours to get here and it's. I'm driving along in my truck and I'm going up a hill, or hill ish. And I start to get to a car that's in front of me with a very annoying person in it and they're going a little bit slower than I am. So I pull out to overtake and then as I'm overtaking them, they start to speed up. [01:23:34] Speaker A: Oh, totally feel right now. [01:23:36] Speaker C: And then. So then I slow back down again and then I. And then I go behind them again and then they slow down. Drives me insane. [01:23:43] Speaker A: Road rage. Road rage. [01:23:46] Speaker C: It happens quite a lot. It happens a lot more often than you would think it would with a. With truck driving. [01:23:51] Speaker A: Yeah. Oh, God. [01:23:53] Speaker B: Do you get the road rage? Do you beep? Are you a horn beeper? [01:23:57] Speaker C: Oh, yeah, no, I horned this one. [01:23:59] Speaker A: Oh, did you? [01:24:00] Speaker C: Yeah. Well, because I love my horn. I love. I love a horn. And as you know, Jenny, and mine's really loud and really big. So. So, yeah, So I make use of it. [01:24:13] Speaker A: Brilliant. [01:24:14] Speaker B: Oh, my God, that is amazing. Simon has got the horn. Well, yes, we know. This should be true, right? I don't have a what's annoyed me this week. I have a what's made me happy this week. [01:24:25] Speaker C: Oh, wow. God, this is a turn up for the books. [01:24:28] Speaker B: I know, isn't it? [01:24:29] Speaker A: Sure. I know. [01:24:30] Speaker B: I know, because I am a miserable bins. We. Helen knew. Helen secretly knew that this might be happening because I did tell her. We are going. It has been announced to be live by the lake at Badminton Horse Trials this year. What? What happened? [01:24:47] Speaker A: How exciting. How. How exciting. [01:24:50] Speaker C: It's very exciting. [01:24:51] Speaker B: It is very exciting. Exciting. [01:24:54] Speaker A: Pinch yourself. [01:24:56] Speaker B: It is, isn't it? Because, I mean, let's face it, badminton is the Mecca, isn't it? It is. I mean, and it's not just that [01:25:02] Speaker C: we're by the lake with the house in the background, like, it's amazing. [01:25:07] Speaker B: When they approached us, I thought they'd be putting us in the camping field on grassroots night, but no, no, on the Thursday when there's late night shopping, we're gonna be hosted by Ramsbury and they are, like in charge of the tent and they're gonna be supporting us. And then apparently we're going to make some cocktails for everyone afterwards. [01:25:27] Speaker A: Oh, that sounds. I'm there, I'm there. Pina colada. [01:25:30] Speaker B: Yes. So, yes, please come. [01:25:35] Speaker A: Please come get really worried. [01:25:36] Speaker B: No one's going to turn up and it'll just be me, Simon and Ben with some microphones. [01:25:40] Speaker C: But we'll have a really lovely time. [01:25:42] Speaker B: Anyway, we would, because we are besties. So please come to the Thursday by the lake at badminton at 5:30. Come and drink. And Abby Lyles agreed to come on and I think we're going to try and get like, Tim Price. I think he'd be a good guest, [01:25:55] Speaker A: he'd be very cool. [01:25:56] Speaker B: But it's very exciting news, so nothing can annoy me because we are badminton bound, which is words I never thought I would say on this podcast. [01:26:06] Speaker C: Amazing. [01:26:07] Speaker B: We're not allowed to swear, though. We have been told no swearing. We have to be on our best behavior, Jenny. Yes, good luck with that one. I'm someone who's just said that. They've got the horn. [01:26:18] Speaker C: That's not swearing. [01:26:21] Speaker B: Right. [01:26:21] Speaker A: Seriously though, well done, well done, well done. And just as I said at the beginning of this, take a moment to acknowledge that because that's really big and that's massive testament to what you guys have done and achieved with this. So really well done. [01:26:36] Speaker C: Oh, that is very sweet. [01:26:38] Speaker B: Thanks. [01:26:38] Speaker C: It's amazing. It is amazing. [01:26:40] Speaker B: And let's face it's the only time I'm gonna get invited to badminton. I'm never gonna compete there, am I? Unlike Simi. Let's hope you get through there. Go sign me. [01:26:48] Speaker A: Go sign me with our banners. Yeah? [01:26:51] Speaker B: Yes. Go. Sigh me. He's so cool. He can do it. Everyone can drool. I don't know. There's a rival. [01:26:58] Speaker A: I know. [01:26:58] Speaker B: Jenny. [01:26:58] Speaker A: No, no. [01:27:00] Speaker B: Yeah. No, stop. [01:27:01] Speaker A: You need some pina coladas before you come up, Helen. [01:27:05] Speaker B: Exactly. Helen, you are an absolute ledge. I'm so glad that I got a new friend when I came away from Thailand, because we had such a lovely time and it was so lovely getting to know you. [01:27:16] Speaker A: It was so cool. [01:27:17] Speaker B: And you are. You are doing it for the. The ladies in the world, of course. Design. And I really hope that one day we will be having you on, celebrating you being a five star. [01:27:29] Speaker A: That would be amazing. [01:27:31] Speaker B: Good luck at Bicton. [01:27:32] Speaker A: Thank you. [01:27:33] Speaker B: Sorry, I'm not going to Victor. [01:27:34] Speaker A: I am. I am. We're gonna have to find a way. I'm gonna have to find a way to get you over. [01:27:38] Speaker B: Yes. [01:27:39] Speaker A: After you. Badminton. [01:27:40] Speaker B: Well, I am. [01:27:41] Speaker A: I feel you're qualified there to come to Bington. [01:27:48] Speaker B: I do. Because I'm from Devon originally. I am a devotion. Yeah. I'm a janner. Born in Plymouth. No. [01:27:56] Speaker A: Yes. Oh, my God. She's a Jana. That's brilliant. [01:27:59] Speaker B: Yes, I'm a janner. I am. [01:28:01] Speaker A: Hello, west country gal. Yeah, it is. [01:28:05] Speaker B: Simi. Good luck tomorrow. How many are you riding? [01:28:09] Speaker C: I've got four. [01:28:10] Speaker A: You've got breaking them in gradually. [01:28:13] Speaker C: That should be a nice day. [01:28:14] Speaker B: Yes. Have lots of fun. But, Helen, all that is left to do. Well, we can't really. Which you still ride, so we can say it. All that's left to say is good luck with vixen and shut up and ride. [01:28:26] Speaker A: Thank you. [01:28:30] Speaker B: Coladas. [01:28:30] Speaker A: Absolutely.