Celeb Degen:' Negative reinforcement vs Positive reinforcement and so much more! '

[00:00:00] Speaker A: Foreign. [00:00:09] Speaker B: Welcome to the Shower Ride podcast. I'm a bit croaky because it's actually the morning after. I've just got back from badminton. I'm still in England for a very special reason, because the boys are back. I can't. I cannot believe we have Simon on here. The morning after badminton at 7 o' clock in the morning. Good morning, boys. [00:00:27] Speaker A: Good morning. [00:00:28] Speaker C: Good morning. [00:00:29] Speaker B: But we do. You can hear the laughing. We had to record this podcast because we have a very special guest and I don't know, I really want to sing. I come from a land down under. But I won't. [00:00:41] Speaker D: No, please do. Please keep going. That was great. [00:00:46] Speaker B: But we have the wonderful. I would like to. I think the best way to describe him is the Australian version of Ben. Is that a good way? I. I don't know. You seem to do so much cool stuff. [00:00:58] Speaker C: He's cooler than I am, that's all. [00:01:02] Speaker D: If we're going to start with this, this kind of flattery this early in the morning for you guys. Everyone, everyone calm down. [00:01:08] Speaker B: Okay, well, Caleb Deegan, thank you so much for coming on the pod. All the way from, I wanna say Brisbane, Australia. Am I right? That area. [00:01:18] Speaker D: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Southeast Queensland. We're just west of Brisbane here. But thank you so much for having me. I'm super excited. I was absolutely stoked when I got the invitation and now I thought it was just with Ben and then the three of you are here, so. No, no pressure. [00:01:31] Speaker B: Simi has just come back from badminton and we've just had a little chat off the pod. And you actually know what badminton is, which is amazing. [00:01:38] Speaker D: I think that if you're in the horse industry and you haven't heard at least of badminton, there's. There's something going on. Sorry, Ben. [00:01:45] Speaker C: Yeah, I was gonna say, Caleb, you're meant to be on my side. I was the most uneducated person. There were people's dogs at badminton that had more knowledge of what was on than me. [00:01:56] Speaker A: Well, I've got my completion plaque here for badminton. [00:02:00] Speaker B: Hold it in front of your face because there's so many of us. You're only very narrow. Oh, look. [00:02:05] Speaker D: Very cool. [00:02:06] Speaker A: Honestly, this. [00:02:07] Speaker C: This is take. [00:02:07] Speaker A: It's taken a lot to get this bad boy. It's just insane, isn't it insane? We spent thousands upon thousands upon thousands of pounds to get there and this is all I've really got to show for. Oh, and the rosette. [00:02:19] Speaker C: I. I love the videos. Nearly every fence I saw a video of you jumping was a fence that I'd Stood next to. And that just freaked me out even more. I was like, no, Master just made it look so easy. Like, it's just. [00:02:35] Speaker A: Honestly, it's the most amazing, amazing little horse, like. And sorry, Caleb, we'll move on. [00:02:40] Speaker D: But, like, don't apologize. [00:02:44] Speaker B: Yeah, don't talk about badminton, guys. We're gonna do a debrief. Okay, we'll talk about badminton. [00:02:49] Speaker A: But just, like, I was like, cross. Cross country, especially, like, the fence before the vicarage. V. The corner over the ditch. Like, I was. I was literally just pulling all the way into it. I was like, well, I saw. I saw. I was like, I've seen my shot. Let's keep traveling to that. And then I suddenly went, actually, no, I haven't. And then I started pulling, and then I, like, literally pulled him into the bottom of it, and he was. And the poor horse was like, I think, Simon, you want me to jump this over here? But I don't know what you're doing, but I think we'll jump into this. And he literally just was like, I'm gonna do it. And he just did it. And that's just, like, so amazing. He just was so on it. It was incredible. So very pleased. [00:03:24] Speaker C: There was a while I was holding the clinic at the weekend, someone came running up screaming and shouting mid lesson, simon's gone clear. [00:03:32] Speaker B: Simon's gone clear. [00:03:34] Speaker C: So I had a little celebration for you at the clinic. Oh, that's so sweet. [00:03:38] Speaker A: Oh, I love it. Love it. [00:03:39] Speaker B: Did you do a celebration dance? [00:03:41] Speaker A: I did. [00:03:42] Speaker C: I did a celebration dance and swearing for Simon. I suppose. Simon did many celebration dances. I'm surprised that you're not recovering from celebration dancing this morning. [00:03:51] Speaker A: I definitely feel quite tired this morning. [00:03:52] Speaker B: Have to say, I know we're all a little bit jaded. [00:03:56] Speaker C: It says a lot about your normal life, Simon, that you look less tired than normal. [00:04:01] Speaker A: Well, actually, to be fair, if you [00:04:03] Speaker C: told me you were doing this podcast [00:04:04] Speaker A: tonight, I probably would have said, nah, thank you. Morning's definitely better for me. Anyway, anyway, back. Back to Caleb. Sorry, Caleb, tell me, have you been. Horses always been a part of your life? Like, right from the word go? [00:04:20] Speaker D: No. Wow. We're straight into it. So I think when I was a kid, I had absolutely nothing to do with it. You know, my. My family isn't horsey whatsoever. None of my family ride at all. I wasn't involved with horses at all. It was actually my. [00:04:33] Speaker A: So where did this come from? [00:04:35] Speaker D: Right. I know that's a drug. It. It finds you. So I think that it was. And he used to drop me off at a riding school on a Friday morning and I'd say there the whole weekend, get picked up on a Monday and here we are 15 years later, the rest is history. [00:04:49] Speaker B: You one of seven. I have a feeling that your parents might have been looking for childcare at that point in time rather than like go and get into horses. This is just childcare. [00:05:00] Speaker D: Yeah, no it most certainly wasn't. Here's a beautiful expensive hobby for you to start out with. It was here. Go and pick up horseshit and we won't see you for two days. [00:05:13] Speaker B: I love that. So how did that then Jenny, you're [00:05:17] Speaker A: almost loving that a little bit too much. Is this. Are you getting ideas for the kids? [00:05:21] Speaker B: I have a fate. No, it's just a reflection on my own life. Like yeah, this is what happened to me. Pick up shit, then we don't have to see you and apparently it's really good and healthy for you. Yeah, yeah. It sounds very similar to what happened to me. Yeah. Although I am in my parents house right now. I need to be quiet that seems because I've watched your videos on Instagram and your performances that you do all over Australia and all the amazing stuff you do with your horses. I have an argument with Ben quite often about this Caleb, because yes, Ben's looking already worried because I don't think some people's way with horses can be trained. I think some people just have the thing where they can see what horses are like and read them. And I think that's why some people can get to a level and some people can't. Do you agree with me? Do you? How did you find out that you had this ability with horses? [00:06:11] Speaker D: Well, it certainly wasn't a, you know, psychic that's so raven moment where I had a vision or anything like that. But it was definitely, I guess, I guess from the get go they were just. I was totally in awe and enamored by horses. Like even these little riding school ponies who the poor buggers. Now I look back on it and they're very different to what I saw them as at the time. But I was just totally enthralled by these incredible creatures that were happy to carry people around and do all of these amazing things. And I think you're exactly right. I think there is definitely a gift that you can't teach people. You can't teach feel. But it has taken a lot of time and training to work on it. Sorry. God, that's two shots fired, Ben. [00:06:51] Speaker C: Yeah, no, my argument is that it's not that it's something you're born with, it's something you pick up sort of accidentally along the way. [00:06:58] Speaker D: Absolutely. [00:06:59] Speaker C: I agree with life. So how do you transition from. Because I'd love to know ask you this, Caleb, because it's a really common question I get asked which is like, how did you get into this industry? Now my answer is terrible because it's pure nepotism. My dad did horses for film and tv so now I do horses for strange stuff. But you saying that you came from a completely non horsey background. [00:07:21] Speaker B: I'm sorry, you don't do straight stuff to horses. Can I just say with horses. [00:07:25] Speaker D: No. Not to be such a bad way [00:07:26] Speaker B: to describe what you do. [00:07:28] Speaker D: I do strange stuff with horses. [00:07:29] Speaker C: It's early. I do strange stuff with horses. Yeah, that's on my, that's on my only fans, not my Instagram. But yeah, because it's, it's such a leap to go from no horses in your life to now, you know, being like a mass, like in a performance side of it, which is such a niche aspect of our industry. What was that journey like? [00:07:50] Speaker D: Terrifying. I think that when I was a kid and when I, when I started out with horses, I never dreamed that that would be a career for me because I was always told, you know, horses are a hobby. You need to find something that's going to fund your hobby. If you have a passion for horses, that's great but you're going to need a career. And I think that for me it was. I wasn't going to take that answer. I wasn't really very happy with it. So I started pushing and working on my own. I had a job working with polo ponies before school and I used to work after school at the local feed store. And from there I guess I discovered what I was truly passionate about. I've been working at the Australian Outback Spectacular. So it's a to live dinner show on the Gold coast and I've been there for nearly 11 years and I think that that has kind of fueled my desire to take it further. I was the most useless, terrified kid about 10 years ago put a mic on me and there is no chance I would have been able to utter any kind of form of a sentence. But being thrown in the deep end in that kind of capacity has taught me to be able to be confident in a sense. And having a horse next to you has made it so much easier for me. [00:08:59] Speaker B: Yeah. Can I just say, having come from the back of Badminton, where I was at Badminton too, did you know, Caleb. But having come from the back of that and interviewing all the riders, they are so much more comfortable when you either put them next to their horse or talk about their horse and not them. So there is definitely an element of good with horses. Shit with chat. And the chat thing has to be trained more than the horse. [00:09:27] Speaker D: Yeah, chat, chat. Always. To give you an example, it was probably a few years in at Outback and I'd just been performing and speaking on mike for a few years and then they decided we were going to do a little trade show demo in a shopping center in Malaysia and obviously we couldn't have any horses there whatsoever. And I was absolutely useless as tits on a bull. Like there was no part of me that was comfortable. As soon as they took my horse away from me, I had nothing. [00:09:54] Speaker C: That's the strike. I think your life could be even stranger than mine because at no, you know, we get some strange jobs with the horses, but to come into work on like Monday morning and be like, oh, by the way team, you're going to Malaysia next week, you're doing a show in a mall with no horses. [00:10:09] Speaker D: Good luck with that. [00:10:10] Speaker C: Have fun. [00:10:10] Speaker D: Yeah, literally. And we took a stock whip. That was the closest thing. You took, a stock whip. [00:10:17] Speaker C: Could you explain? Because I'm a massive fan. I like love the Outback Spectacular. It's on my bucket list to come and see it. But could you give a little bit more of a sort of background of what that is and what goes on at that show to our audience? [00:10:30] Speaker D: Yeah, for sure. I guess. It's like a Broadway play with 40 horses, 20 cattle, an eagle, dogs, a helicopter, the works. So it's a, it's a massive. Just to put it in one second. Yeah, I know. Okay, let's go. So it's the only helicopter on a monorail in the southern hemisphere. So it actually, it has to be able to run. So it's governed by Australia aviation laws. So it does have to be able to fly out of there tomorrow. But it sits on a monorail and does a lap of the arena and does a fake muster of cattle. It's pretty cool, but that's really cool. Yeah, it's epic. But to give you a bit of an idea, it's a 60 by 20 arena. Just the basics to start with. And then we have a thousand seat auditorium and it's a live dinner show. So we do four or five shows a week and there's quadrilles with horses with 12 riders. We have trick riders, there's some liberty work. There's singing, dancing, the work. [00:11:28] Speaker A: Are you a singer then? And a dancer? [00:11:30] Speaker D: Unfortunately, sometimes the audience does have to hear that. [00:11:33] Speaker A: Yes. [00:11:36] Speaker C: This could be. [00:11:37] Speaker A: So you're like a proper natural performer like Ben is. [00:11:39] Speaker D: This is your calling, Simon. I think. I think we've got to get you over to the show. [00:11:42] Speaker C: Yeah. You've been taking your acting classes now, mate. [00:11:45] Speaker A: I'd love it. I would love it. I think that sounds. That sounds right. On my street. [00:11:49] Speaker C: You had a great badminton. Now you can retire to Australia to combine all your skills. [00:11:53] Speaker A: Yeah. Slightly scratch it. [00:11:56] Speaker C: Perfect. [00:11:56] Speaker D: I know a guy. [00:11:57] Speaker C: Yeah, I just. I think it's insane just the scale of the performance that you guys put on and like all the special effects there. We're constantly seeing you online rehearsing different things. And what I love. One of the reasons I was so inspired to ask you on Caleb was that you're. You don't sit on your laurels. Like, you are constantly pushing yourself to grow, not only with your liberty work, but always with you also now with your classical dressage and the horses you've been acquiring for yourself there to expand that skill. What would you say is your greatest passion when it comes to both performing and the horse training? [00:12:32] Speaker D: For me, I think it's seeing growth. I think that that's something that's really addictive for me in myself and in my horses. Like, I think one of the things that I'm really passionate about is having a goal, but not letting that goal be all consuming. Like, for me, feeling like the horse is getting somewhere with you is something that is. I mean, you guys all know that it's indescribable. It's something that you go there together and start to achieve something. In that sense. I have recently started delving into all the worlds, for want of a better word, I get bored quite quickly, so I want to try new things. You know, I've started decided lately I'm going to start riding dressage. And then on the back of that, I'll do the same liberty work with the horses as well. So I try not to pigeonhole myself too much, which makes it fun. [00:13:14] Speaker B: I have seen some of your dressage. You look beautiful on a horse doing dressage, by the way. You like, you are really good. [00:13:21] Speaker D: I have some nice forces. [00:13:22] Speaker C: No, I think I was just. I was just gonna say if you're. If you're just starting your dressage journey, don't go and look at Caleb just starting his dressage journey because you will demoralize yourself and think, why don't he's he's here going, I'm just starting my dressage journey. And then you scroll down and he's riding beautifully. And then training things like PF at Liberty. And you're like, I think. I think we're doing quite well. [00:13:47] Speaker B: There's me barely cantering around a preliminary liberty. [00:13:51] Speaker A: I mean, how do you even. How do you even start that? [00:13:54] Speaker D: Well, you sign up to the Ben Atkinson Method and you have to go from there. [00:14:00] Speaker C: So, like, same, same sort of question, but sort of even further. Where did you. Where did you first come across the Liberty work? And how was your journey in that? And how do you think that's changed you as a horseman? [00:14:12] Speaker D: I think it's kind of defined everything that I do as a horseman. I. I learned from a incredible lady called Zelie Bullen, who works in film and TV a lot in Australia. So she's worked on huge movies like the War Horse Racing Stripes, all of these big feature films. And she trains a lot of the horses for Outback Spectacular. So she trained a lot of the older horses that we have there. And we trained these three beautiful black Liberty horses that were interchangeable for a certain scene of the show. Now there's two Friesian crosses and a little stock horse. They're all so individual. But she started working with me and showing me how she works with a Liberty horse. And I just thought that this witchcraft, this lady that was teaching these horses things, that there was nothing touching them, and it was the most incredible thing that I had ever seen in my life. And I had to know more. And it was pretty well from the first time that I saw her first worker Liberty horse. Well, this beautiful connection that she had with them, I said, like, that's me. I've got to do that. Like, I need to learn how to do that, whatever it takes. And that's kind of how it happened. [00:15:17] Speaker B: That is. But what I kind of find amazing is it's not like, I don't know with both you and Ben. It's not like with, like when you learn to ride and you go, right, these are the stages. These are like you land, rising, trot, and then you hope they don't fall off in canter, and then you actually teach them to sit the canter and then you learn to jump. Whereas I feel with the Liberty, like, when there's no one. You guys obviously have been doing it for a long time now. And now there is like the Ben Atkinson Method. But I'm guessing when you started out in the same way as Ben started out There was no, like, real pathway of how do I make. [00:15:52] Speaker A: It's a case to kind of find your way, isn't it? [00:15:55] Speaker D: Yeah, yeah. It was just a lot of stuffing up, to be totally honest. There was trial and error and seeing what worked. And my poor horses, if I had the same knowledge I did today, I'm sure they'd be a lot happier with me. But I think that's the beauty, beautiful thing about horses as a whole. Like, they're going to try and work something out, like, even if it's not done the exact same way or done perfectly, if you, if you give them that clear line of connection and the same, the same question every time, they're going to work it out in some kind of way. But, yeah, it was definitely a whole, whole, whole lot of trial and error. It wasn't always pretty, that's for sure. [00:16:29] Speaker A: And have you ever had it where you've kind of thought, you know, in your younger days when you thought, yeah, no, I've cracked it. I know, I know, I know what I'm doing now. And then you suddenly realize that, actually, no, I have no idea. And I need to learn more because. [00:16:40] Speaker B: Are you speaking from experience here, Simon? [00:16:42] Speaker A: Yeah, totally. Well, you do, don't you? Like, like with horses, you, like, there's a stage when you're younger, when you're like, yeah, no, I've got this, I've got this covered now. And then. And then very quickly you realize you don't have it covered at all and that you're never going to stop learning. And I mean, that's what makes it so wonderful as a. No, as a thing, horses is that we never stop learning and we're never going to be perfect. [00:17:03] Speaker D: Yeah, I think I love it. Sorry, Ben, go ahead. [00:17:06] Speaker C: I was going to say, I feel like Simon. Simon, saying, yeah, become an equestrian and have your first midlife crisis at 25. [00:17:13] Speaker A: Well, to be fair, like. So it's like, like this morning, if I'm really honest, I am. I feel a bit deflated because, you know, I had a really good weekend, but there's, I can, I can literally, there's. There's so many things that I could improve of what I've. What I've just done. And, but, and I was thinking about it this morning. I was thinking like, Ros Cantor did the most spectacular job this weekend and won and was incredible because she is. But I bet she's the same. I bet she's thinking, oh, that could have done that better, or could. That could have been better, or I Didn't really help him out there. And there's like. It's. It's like, obviously it's different. Well, is it different? Is it different to you guys? I don't know. But, yeah, you're always thinking, I could have done that better, or I could improve this, or I could be communicating better with this or that or whatever, and it must be the same with you guys. Or am I wrong? [00:17:59] Speaker D: No, I think you're totally right. I think the perspective is absolutely everything, not just with horses, but, like, everything in life. Like, I sometimes will go and do a performance, and I will come out, like, happy with my horses, but I'll think, my God, that was absolutely abysmal. And I'll have someone come up from the audience nearly in tears, saying, that was the most beautiful thing they've ever seen. And I'm thinking, were we in the same room? Like, that's. That's not what I thought. [00:18:22] Speaker A: No, no, it was shite. [00:18:23] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:18:24] Speaker D: Literally. Yeah. But to answer your original question, I think that it was the first time, and it seems so ridiculous now, but the first time I just got one of my horses to circle at Liberty. And now that seems so absurd, but I was like, oh, my God, I've done it. This is it. I've made it. We're done. Put the tools down. Great work, everybody. Like, we're finished here. And I think it was the next day that it's just a constant learning journey. I think that happens to me pretty well every week now, I think, oh, yeah, we got that. That's awesome. And then we start again, and it's like, oh, no. Yeah, yeah, actually, pull your head in. [00:18:59] Speaker B: The horse did a circle at Liberty. Next day you came out and the horse buggered off and started eating grass on the other side of the road. You're like, it doesn't. [00:19:06] Speaker D: Yeah, actually, I suck. [00:19:09] Speaker C: It's so difficult because you. You need to have both those mindsets at the same time, don't you? Like, you need to praise yourself and give yourself, like, positive feedback and support for what you've done, as well as forgiveness for the mistakes that you've made. [00:19:25] Speaker A: But is it. Can any. Can anyone do that? Like, because, like. Well, so I just. It's something that none of. None of us do that, do we? [00:19:33] Speaker C: We're always. [00:19:34] Speaker A: We're always criticizing ourselves. We could. We never go, God, bloody hell, that was really good, wasn't it? Yeah, Like, I did a brilliant job there. Like, we're so rubbish at that. [00:19:41] Speaker C: But if we don't criticize ourselves, we wouldn't grow either. [00:19:45] Speaker A: Yeah, because I. There'll be a balance, isn't there? [00:19:48] Speaker C: Yeah, because it really is that balance. Because you see it with. There's a lot of, like, in the horse world these days. It's fashionable to blame the horse, even via being sympathetic to the horse. So it might not be like, oh, it's going wrong because this horse is bad. Or it could be it's going wrong because this horse has this trauma or whatever. [00:20:06] Speaker A: He's just really green. He's just really green right now. [00:20:09] Speaker C: Whereas it's like, well, yeah, but you could improve your own skill and it would definitely help the horse. So that's why I say it's. I agree. It's awful that we can't. That we do criticize ourselves so much. But like you say, I bet Ros is doing the same thing to herself this morning. And that's what makes the best the best. [00:20:27] Speaker B: Can I ask a question? Do you think. And this is all three of you? Put my hand up. Yeah. Thanks, Caleb. Do you think if you guys were better at going, I made that mistake but had it in a positive way. What can I learn from this? And I know you do do that a little bit, but there is like a sense of, I could have done that better, I could have done that better. But like, almost turn it around. Right, we did that. How do we fix it and be more positive about it and. And try and block out the negative, Recognize it, but not be negative about it. [00:20:59] Speaker A: I try and do that all the time. I find it. I find it more difficult and dependent on. On so many factors, like what time of day is, how tired I am, what kind of frame of mind I'm in. If I'm a good frame of mind, I'm not exhausted, then I'm very good at being like, okay, so. So I made a mistake. But I can learn from it because of this, that and the other. But when I'm really knackered, I make a mistake and I'm like, I am so fucking shit. [00:21:21] Speaker D: And it's very difficult to get away. Everything. Yeah. Why do you even have horses? What's the point? [00:21:27] Speaker A: Yeah, exactly. And. And more often than not, that's because I'm absolutely knackered and I can't, like, see a way through. And like, I don't know, it's like a. It's like a little bit of a brain fog, like a tiredness fog that you can't just like, there's no clarity to it. That's what I find [00:21:44] Speaker B: then, that. That Maybe isn't the best time to fix that. Can you go like. That's the thing, isn't it? Cause you have to work with horses 24 7. [00:21:52] Speaker A: Now that I'm really old. Yeah. [00:21:53] Speaker B: Oh, good. [00:21:54] Speaker C: Back in the day, I'll be actually knocking. [00:21:56] Speaker A: Be like, okay, so look babes, you're really tired, so let's just think about this another time, shall we? [00:22:01] Speaker B: Do you call yourself babes? Can we just don't like that's. [00:22:04] Speaker A: No, of course not. [00:22:06] Speaker D: In the mirror. Listen here, honey. [00:22:09] Speaker A: Listen here, honey. [00:22:09] Speaker C: Now just imagining Simon riding into the fences at badminton. Like, come on, babes, we've got this. [00:22:14] Speaker D: Let's go get it together. [00:22:16] Speaker A: It's like when I was at. Sorry, sorry. This is. I'm making this all about me. Yeah, I was, I was. I was at Poe one year. It was where I was just about to. I was going to leave my hotel room to go and do the cross country day and I was fairly scared and I. And I was just about to go out the door and I looked in the mirror and I was like. And I started talking to myself in the mirror and I was like, look, you're really good at this. Don't be a pussy. [00:22:40] Speaker C: You just remind me of. Have you seen the film Cool Runnings? [00:22:44] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:22:45] Speaker C: I'm a bad man who don't take no shit from nobody. That's Simon in the mirror before he goes out on an event. [00:22:53] Speaker D: He's got his lucky egg in his pocket. [00:22:55] Speaker A: I'm gonna have to record that, Ben, and listen to that on the way in when I'm going to cross country start. [00:22:59] Speaker C: Oh, you should. And we can get all your fans to like memorize it. So when you're stood going around the course, they're shouting, I'm a bad man who don't take that shit from nobody. [00:23:07] Speaker D: Come on, Simon. [00:23:08] Speaker B: No, that's why we won't get invited back to badminton. [00:23:12] Speaker C: Yeah, I saw that. When that reel we made got posted by us and not badders, I was like, cool. My career as a course walker's over. [00:23:22] Speaker A: No, no, no, no, they loved it. They loved it. Well, badminton might not do, but everyone else did. [00:23:28] Speaker C: I agree with you on the mindset thing though. So I had. I was doing a clinic over the weekend, which is why I couldn't stay to watch Simon. And I was teaching a really advanced student. Like, she's amazing. Like, she's jumping a meter 30 track, bridle this on her horse. Like she show jumps up to a massive level. She's incredible, but she has a confidence crisis when things go wrong at Liberty and doubts her training and stuff. So this is the mindset that I try and look at it at. There isn't an infinite amount of things going wrong in your life. Try and get into the mindset that if you imagine that there's not an infinite amount of mess ups, but there is an infinite amount of success. So every single time you try and it goes wrong, that's one less time that you're going to have to go wrong in the future. Because every time we go wrong, we can unpick it, we can find out what happened, we can make a plan and we can do better next time. So you can't. When things go badly or you have a bad day, that is, it's impossible for that to make you fail. The only time that you really fail is when you stop trying. [00:24:28] Speaker A: And so Benji, what if it keeps on going wrong over and over and over again? [00:24:32] Speaker C: Well then you need more information, new plans, new systems. Like one thing I thought that was really, on this topic, really inspiring like to hear you, Simon, saying over the weekend was all the mindset work you did and all that sort of thing like, you know, you, you saw a hole in your game and you, and you found the support and the knowledge to, to fix it. And I think that's just such an important message. Doesn't matter if we're doing what you were doing, it doesn't matter if we're doing, you know, liberty or whatever your goal is really, you know, keep trying. And if it keeps going wrong in the same way, there's definitely a solution [00:25:05] Speaker B: of sign up for a bit of bat. [00:25:07] Speaker C: Sign up for a bit of bat or just, just anything like that. Because your mindset is everything. [00:25:13] Speaker D: My tired cycle, I'm the exact same, Simon. So if I can recognize before it's too late that I'm too tired. Like I sound like a winter here. I work full time at Outback, get home at around 10 o', clock, 10:30 at night and then we start at home at 6am the next morning, day in, day out. And if I'm in that tired cycle, horrible, right? No, I do it to myself, I love it. But if I can recognize that I'm in my tired cycle and there's no point in trying to address something in that point in time and that there's another day tomorrow, my training progresses so much quicker if I leave something rather than trying to fix it on the day. Like if I just come back, better frame of mind, there's actually no point in me trying to push through that at that point in time because I will just doubt myself entirely. Whereas coming back with a fresh brain, the perspective totally changes. [00:26:00] Speaker A: And so. So talking of your tired cycle, and you finish at 10, 10:30 at night and then you start at 6:30 the next morning. And you clearly do that like, well, pretty much seven days a week. How do you get out of that cycle? Because you can't get out of that cycle without having some downtime. And you obviously don't have much downtime. Or do you? [00:26:19] Speaker D: No. Well, that's so Mondays today, right now, today's my day off, so we always have Monday off. But I think for me it's also recognizing that as soon as I. A few hours to myself, I want to go and work with a horse again. Like, it just makes me. Because I'm sure you've all been in that point in your life where horses are my driving passion for everything. But when it becomes every minute of every day you're working with a horse, you're talking about a horse, you're seeing a horse, sometimes it becomes almost like a trigger point of going, I just need a minute where I, I'm not with a horse. But then I find myself on a Monday, I'll have four or five hours in, in the house. And I'm sitting there going stir crazy thinking, okay, what could I be doing with my horses? So I think that that's, it's also realizing that as soon as that's taken away, you want more of it. [00:27:01] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:27:02] Speaker C: That's cool. [00:27:03] Speaker B: I think you're both like that. I think, I think you're both like that. Especially like Ben. The one thing that drives Ben the most bad is the fact that you're, when you're doing this right now, you're not working with your horses. [00:27:15] Speaker D: Yes, totally. Yeah. [00:27:17] Speaker C: Don't take it personally. [00:27:19] Speaker B: I don't. I've met your horses. I'd rather hang out with them than all of you three. So. Yeah. Yeah. [00:27:24] Speaker C: But that, that comes from an even more crazy part of my brain, which is my, my obsession with mortality and the fact that my body's going to get older and my horses are going to get older. So I only have so many days to work with those horses in their prime, and I only have so many days to work with me in my prime. And so like, especially my favorite horses and the ones that are getting older every day when you're like away doing something else, it's like, oh, you're wasting a ride, you're wasting time. Like, what are you doing so that is. That's one of my big drivers. [00:27:54] Speaker A: Oh, I like that. Passion. More passion. More energy. [00:28:00] Speaker C: Energy, Right. [00:28:02] Speaker B: Welcome to my world, Caleb. But I get that because I'm not riding so much at the moment, and I'm like, that's like, oh, poor Gregor. [00:28:12] Speaker A: You're gonna be doing loads next week. [00:28:14] Speaker B: I give up. No, but then I saw. I'm like, I just hate both of you. Let's go back to Caleb. Do you train people or do you just work your horse? No, to teach people how to ride. He is very handsome. I'm not going in that direction. [00:28:31] Speaker A: Jenny Moodle, you are terrible. [00:28:33] Speaker D: Back to the horses. Yeah, no, no, I do. I do a fair bit, actually. I've just started doing a fair few clinics and things on the east coast of Australia, and I really love it. I think sharing knowledge is something that's really powerful. It's the only way that I was able to learn and anyone is. But, hey, if you give me a choice every day of the week, I'm going to be at home working with my horses as well. Even. Even if it's the choice between, I don't know, working with whoever, I'm always going to want to be at home with my own horses, too. [00:29:01] Speaker B: Is that because obviously you've, like, with your family, you've had one of seven children and growing up and things like. And you're obviously. I can see that your horses are not just your work buddies, they're your solace, they're your everything. How are you at dealing with the clients that are just like, oh, it's all the horse's fault, or it's all that, or are you able to, like, we talk about it quite a lot. The people who want to learn but really don't want to learn. [00:29:26] Speaker D: I think that Liberty as a whole has become this. Like this, I don't know, a trending fashion at the moment, that they think that as soon as their horse is loose, they can post a photo on Instagram and say, I did a Liberty session with my horse today and their horses got its. But turned to them and facing the other direction and not engaged whatsoever. But, hey, they did a Liberty clinic or a workshop. So for me, I think that's a huge thing that I'm starting to be more comfortable in myself with and starting to be able to tell people, hey, you need to come and work with your horse and not just send your horse to me for a minute and hopefully hope for the best. My clients are amazing and I'm extremely lucky. But like you said, it's always people that want to. Want to have their horse doing this incredible stuff, but not put in the work. [00:30:11] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:30:12] Speaker C: I have a little saying which is lots of people want to do liberty, but nobody wants to learn liberty. [00:30:17] Speaker D: Correct. [00:30:18] Speaker A: So I really. I don't know whether I'm going to be sounding like a twat now, but [00:30:25] Speaker D: at least you led with that. [00:30:27] Speaker A: I'd really like to do liberty with Buster, the horsehead of Badminton on with all my horses, but my biggest worry about it is that I would really screw it up and I'd actually affect my relationship with the horse in a negative way by doing it wrong. Or Ben shaking his head. So what do you think to that, Ben? Am I being stupid? Am I being short sighted by not having a go? [00:30:51] Speaker C: I don't think you're being short sighted by not having a go because I think especially for you, it would just be finding the time to like, you know, finding the time in your schedule and I can say in Buster's schedule where you'd could spend the time you had with him each day to work on that. But I think, I think you're maybe. Yeah, I don't. You can't go wrong in a way, really. Like, as long as you're training ethically and you've got a bit of guidance, a bit like anything else. Like you would if someone said to you or Simon, I'd really like to, you know, get into jumping or I'd like to get into dressage, but I'm really scared I'm going to mess up my horse. You'd say no, like you, like. Yeah, you're going to go wrong at first, but I think, I suppose, I [00:31:28] Speaker A: suppose it's more like. It's not. What I mean is like not just messing up my horse, potentially messing up my, my relationship with, with him. [00:31:36] Speaker C: I don't think so. Caleb, what do you think by changing [00:31:38] Speaker A: things too much, is that. [00:31:41] Speaker D: No, I think that's a great question because I get it all the time. People say to me, hey, I would love to start, but I don't want to mess it up. I don't want to screw up what I've got with my horse already. But I think the fact that you're going into it with a mindset like that to start with tells me pretty well everything I need to know. If you have that little bit of underlying fear is the wrong word, but respect for your horse, that you might alter some kind of connection with them, that tells me everything I need to know. The fact that you're Going to be, like Ben said, training ethically and working with your horse. They're the masters of body language and communication. So as soon as you start working with him, he's going to. He knows you. He already knows you perfectly. Look at what you've achieved with him. How incredible. [00:32:20] Speaker C: Yeah, I think we have, like, obviously, with me having wild this year, last year and stuff, and worry about being a good dad and one of my friends who's got a kid who's older, like his little boy's 10, and his mantra that he taught me is, good dads, good dads don't worry about being bad dads. And I think that applies to horses as well. That same sort of, if you're worried about doing a bad job at it, you're probably not. Or if you are, you're not on purpose. You know, people that don't care about their animals don't worry about, you know, about messing them up, about not doing a good job at it. So that anxiety, that apprehension in itself, exactly like Caleb said, is proof that you won't do what you're worried about. [00:33:05] Speaker B: You've also got to not use it as an excuse like we were talking about earlier. So I find, like a lot of clients that I've taught that worry turns into excuses. I can't. They had hock injections four years ago, so now I don't want to jump them because I'll mess them up. Do you know what I mean? Like, you can use your fear and then turn it into an excuse and then, I don't know. Caleb's laughing. Would you say that that was a assessment of some people? [00:33:30] Speaker D: Yeah, absolute. It's my favorite when somebody says, I can't. He had an abscess as a 2 year old. Like that hoof has regrown. You're fine. Like, let's go, let's do something. [00:33:40] Speaker C: Caleb, one of the reasons that I wanted to bring you on the podcast was because I love your work anyway and I've heard you do other podcasts and stuff and I think you're fascinating. But I love at the moment that you're very willing to stick your head above the parapet and get stuck into topics that you seem to do really well because I've not seen you get lynched online yet, which is. [00:34:00] Speaker D: Oh, no, I do, I do. [00:34:03] Speaker C: So you posted all about the different styles of training, talking about R plus, R minus and all that sort of thing, and really putting a logic and reality, you know, factual stance on that out into the world. I'd just love to ask you a little bit about that, about what sort of spurred you to do it, how you got involved in that side, and what has the reaction been from the public? [00:34:25] Speaker D: Okay, to be clear, first off, I get lynched all the time. All the time. I get taken down, and it used to really affect me. Like, I used to take it home and take it to the bank. And it would be Anonymous member number 427. And I'd hold on to that comment for weeks and weeks of someone telling me, I don't know, something silly like your horse hates you because of your whips, and I could clearly see through the crap. But it doesn't matter. Those. Those words kind of stuck with you for a bit. I think being in an online presence for a while now, it has taught me to push through and stick to what I believe as to be good. Hey, that might lose some people. It might gain some people. But if I'm not being true to myself, then there's no point in posting that video you're talking about. I did sit on for about three days because I was quite nervous because I was a bit worried about posting that. And it's a. It's a pretty strong opinion because I'm pretty much cutting down a few people saying that what they're doing is incorrect. But what. What Ben is referring to here was me posting a video talking about positive reinforcement and negative reinforcement training, what it means to me. And I often have people come to me saying that, oh, well, you work with Liberty horses. That must only be positive reinforcement. Or could you please break my horse in. In four weeks only using positive reinforcement, or start him at Liberty? And I've gotten pretty comfortable now telling people that, no, like, I do use negative reinforcement as well. And that doesn't necessarily mean that it's a bad thing. You know, negative reinforcement is the only reason why we're all still alive and why we're sitting here and why we're all not talking over each other. I think it's. It's a really important part of horse training. Is negative reinforcement done in an ethical way? [00:36:08] Speaker C: Could you just explain to, like, us and our listener. Yes. What exactly what you're talking about when you say positive and negative reinforcement. [00:36:17] Speaker D: Yeah. Okay. So pretty simply put for me, and from my perspective anyway, negative reinforcement is the moment that your horse is in a controlled space. So like a paddock, whether it be 50 or 100 acres or a tiny little yard, that's negative reinforcement. That horse has a fence surrounding it and a barrier perimeter for you to work with it, the moment that you have a head collar, a lead rope, a neck rope, any kind of rewards that you are withholding. If for me, it's just so many different things are often overlooked in domesticated horses because they're just the norm for people. It's just like, oh, no, he's just out in his paddock. There's no. There's no pressure. There's an electric fence around that paddock that that horse isn't allowed to go through. That's. That's pretty well, negative reinforcement. So I. I often do get clients that want me to only work with their horses in a positive reinforcement way. But for me, that can be really confusing for a horse when they're not getting the opportunity to get the right answer quicker. And I think the video that Ben's talking about, again, is something that the harsh reality of horse training as a whole is that it's for us like, it's. It's for people. If a horse had a choice from the get go to be ridden or trot circles or piave passage jump, whatever it may be, I can pretty well guarantee you they wouldn't do it. So there's a point in time where we have to be okay with what our training is and how we train our horses to be okay with what we're doing and comfortable and be able to sleep at night. [00:37:46] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:37:46] Speaker C: So I think it's get people's backs up a lot. Yeah. Like, which is the reason I was. I was sort of good on you, Caleb. Glad you did it, not me. When you put that video out. [00:37:57] Speaker D: Because white flag. Because white flag. [00:38:00] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:38:01] Speaker C: Now white flag. You planted that flag on that hill, [00:38:04] Speaker D: and you're gonna die there. [00:38:05] Speaker C: That's what you're. That's what you're doing with that video. But the. Because. Yeah. So, like, in my brain, the simplest way to explain it is positive reinforcement is horse does something you like, you give it a reward, generally a food reward to encourage that to happen more often. Negative reinforcement is adding a physical stimulus to the horse to get the reaction. So when you're sat on a horse and you click to ask it to walk on and it doesn't, and then you squeeze with your legs to tell it to walk on. Technically, because you're squeezing the horse, you're making the horse uncomfortable with your legs, that's negative reinforcement. And then the issue I have is, and what I loved about your video is the purists. So the purists who, like, say, I only train with positive reinforcement, but then the horse wears A head collar. So they're claiming to only train positive reinforcement for the. Kudos for the credit, claiming they don't use negative reinforcement. But the moment you make any form of tactile pressure on a horse, you are using negative reinforcement. And I think we're so triggered by the language that makes people want to deny scientific fact. Because, like a bri. I would say, oh, I've started now, so I'll finish. I was going to say a brilliant example, but it's not a brilliant example. Go and watch blackfish and sign petitions and make it stop. But the. The example of, like the orca at SeaWorld, I would say that's a sort of a prime example of purely positive reinforcement, as far as I'm aware. Like, no one's getting in there and tapping an orca with a schooling whip and saying, please move your fin over here. You're creating behaviors by where you move food and stuff like that. And so I think there needs to be a. Everybody needs to step down off their defenses and their high horse a bit, which is why I loved your. Your video. Because it's pointless for trainers to claim they do purely positive reinforcement because they don't. [00:39:55] Speaker A: Because it's impossible. [00:39:56] Speaker C: You're saying, well, it's impossible if you want to touch your horse and. Or ride it in any way, shape or form. Like, it's. It's. There's no need for it either. Do you know it's. It literally means touch any. [00:40:08] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:40:08] Speaker C: If it feels it via touch, then it's a negative reinforcement. [00:40:11] Speaker A: So a huge percentage of any training that we, all of us do with horses is negative reinforcement. [00:40:17] Speaker D: Yeah, yeah, but. [00:40:18] Speaker A: And, but also the more you get the liberty. [00:40:23] Speaker D: Sorry, but like, the, the word negative, I think that's. That's the problem, though, is that I think everybody has this negative connotation to the word negative. Like, as soon as you say negative, it becomes this problem, like we're doing something wrong or bad by the horse. Like, negative is not. It's just the word. Don't get. Get rid of the idea that the fact that it's a bad thing or something that is causing total discomfort or harm to a horse, it's just creating, I guess, a clearer line of communication that we can work with them in a way that they understand a whole lot better than hoping and praying for the best. [00:40:57] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:40:57] Speaker A: So it's clear reinforcement rather than negative. [00:41:00] Speaker C: Yeah, I guess it's. [00:41:00] Speaker D: Yeah, yeah. [00:41:01] Speaker C: Negative reinforcement doesn't involve the horse feeling negative about training. It's just trying to break the ball [00:41:08] Speaker A: as soon as you say negative reinforcement. Sorry to interrupt. As soon as you say negative reinforcement, I think, I think whips and using, like, stuff that's really, like, it's bad in a bad way. [00:41:21] Speaker C: Yeah. You think that's my immediate thing. [00:41:24] Speaker D: Yeah, yeah. [00:41:24] Speaker C: You think of big spiky Ralph spurs and cattle prods and. [00:41:28] Speaker A: Yeah, and that's, that's where my brain straight away goes. [00:41:31] Speaker C: Yeah, and that's. And that's the thing. Whereas, you know, the moment you feel that, that second of pressure when you put a head collar and lead rope on a horse in the field and you give them that small pull to say, please follow me, to walk in, that's negative reinforcement. So it's, it's. The reason I just wanted to have this conversation is it's important for people to understand the science. I wish whoever had come up with it had created better names, basically. [00:41:54] Speaker D: Well, let's create one now. [00:41:58] Speaker C: Don't. It's too hard. [00:41:59] Speaker D: You try. [00:42:00] Speaker C: Start trying to think about it. And like. [00:42:03] Speaker A: But it's not. It's about educating people then, isn't it? And like. So, like negative. Well, you've educated me this morning, so, and I'm sure lots of other people as well about what that means and how negative reinforcement isn't a bad thing. Well, it can be, but I think [00:42:16] Speaker B: a little bit of Caleb started this with them. Like, I think Caleb, you're like, it's about getting your head around whether you're okay to ask a horse to do something that if they had the choice, they wouldn't want to do. That goes like. But I do think, to add to that though, do you think once we have trained them to do it, they enjoy it? Because I didn't like things that I've learned to do in life that I now enjoy. Now I know how to do them. But when you start out, you're like, I don't like driving, for example. [00:42:44] Speaker D: It's a great connotation there. But yeah, absolutely. I think learning to learn is something that a horse absolutely learns to enjoy. Don't get me wrong, I'm coming from a place where horses are my entire life, career, being. I don't go a day without having horses in my life. They're my everything. But I think it's just also having enough, I guess, self awareness to not blindside myself into thinking that, you know, asking my horse to do high level exercises is necessarily something that is on their morning bingo card. Yes, we can teach them to love it. My horses come in ready to work. They want to do Things because it's an interaction that they then start to enjoy and they start to want to be a part of the conversation in the same way that you're talking about learning. I think wanting to learn is something you can definitely teach a horse. But for me it was more a self assessment to not claim something that I'm not. [00:43:40] Speaker B: Yeah, this is hurting my brain, but sorry. [00:43:44] Speaker C: And then I think this is such an important, important conversation for. Because we can't let the risk of all like the social licensing and just sort of, I don't know, almost feels a bit like communist Russia style. All your neighbors are watching you and you will be reported to Big Brother if you do anything wrong. Which is good in like in some ways is amazing because the people that are doing terrible things are getting caught. But from a general population stance, it can't be a race to the bottom. Is my big thing. Like seeing badminton over the weekend, seeing those horses, seeing the things that they did. Those horses love that. They're bred for it. They do it. I would. That should exist forever. It should not go away the same way. When we see the high level of each equestrian sport. But I think people need to just be able to realize, you know, there are horses that have the capacity physically and mentally, like we call it software and hardware and that can reach those heights of training, be it in eventing, be it in dressage, be it in liberty. We, all of our, our sequences or moves or specialities that take to know the highest level horses can achieve. But that doesn't mean that every horse should be asked to, you know, to move to that level. And I think that's where some of the sort of the reality checks in with it. And, and because strangely. [00:45:04] Speaker A: But you, you couldn't get, you couldn't get any horse to do the top level because they, they would say no. [00:45:10] Speaker C: Yeah, exactly. [00:45:10] Speaker A: And they do say no. But the big thing with that though is when they do say no, you need to read it right and you need to do the right thing. And lots of people don't do the right thing. [00:45:19] Speaker D: 100. [00:45:19] Speaker A: 100. [00:45:20] Speaker D: You just, you, you just had it there in, in one sentence that it's a conversation. It's not, it's not dictator Russia, but it's just a conversation between the horse and the person. It's just not always a one way street. That's I think what we're, what we're trying to get at. [00:45:35] Speaker B: What do you do, Caleb, if you've got a show? [00:45:38] Speaker D: It's a really good question. I perform with my Horses, you know, three or four nights a week, depending. It's probably a bit less now, but working out where that horse is at for the day and not sacrificing my relationship with my horse for an audience's entertainment is something that I have learned very recently because I used to push. I used to push past a point to get some kind of an exercise or a movement, because, you know, that's what the crowd's expecting. That's what's going on. But dealing with the horse that I have in front of me and being able to read that in a way that I'm not going to push past my horse's threshold and break their confidence is really important for me, my horses, honestly. And I can say this, you know, hand on heart. I can walk into my paddock, and my horses will trot over. They are happy to be a part of the conversation, and they want to learn and be a part of that connecting environment. It's more so just making sure that we're not, you know, pushing past that confidence and breaking the confidence in us. [00:46:31] Speaker A: And how do you deal with that? If you're in a situation where you're at a show and you feeling like your horse is not, not. Not engaged, not happy, and you're not happy with that situation, do you just say, sorry, guys, bad luck. We're gonna have to stop there? Or do you have another horse? You get another horse? Or how does it. Sorry, no idea how the show works, but, like, yeah, is it the show over, or how do you deal with that? [00:46:54] Speaker B: They get an eagle, and they have [00:46:55] Speaker D: a sake of the book, the show. Look over there. No, it's. It's always like, the show goes on no matter what. Like, someone falls off, the show keeps going. But if my liberty horse doesn't want to work with me on the night, and, hey, don't get me wrong, that's probably never really happened in that way. But I might alter the routine entirely and just there are nights where I have done walk and trot circles and made it look as flamboyant as I can, moving my hands and whips and making it into a performance. But I think that just reading your horse on the day and making sure that you. You're true to yourself, especially in live performances, it is so tough because it's not. You're not shooting for a film where you can, hey, we'll do another take. Hey, we'll try again. Like, Ben knows as well, live performances are really, really tough to navigate. [00:47:43] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:47:43] Speaker A: Because Ben said that multiple times before. That, you know, we're so different because I like when I'm doing a jazz house test and when I'm doing cross country course or schedule or whatever, it's set. That is what we have to do. We have to. That's what we have to do. Whereas when he's doing his performances, he can completely go off beast and do whatever he likes and it still looks really good. He's not actually said that, but that's what I'm thinking. [00:48:05] Speaker D: Yeah, man. [00:48:06] Speaker A: Whatever I do, I look really great. [00:48:09] Speaker C: I think we're like the last bastion. We have some easier things as well. I can fall off mid performance, get decked, and everyone will just watch me get back on and carry on. No, no, no. No one wants to medically check me or ask me if I need a head scan before I remount. [00:48:24] Speaker A: Well. And you can literally go, that was totally intentional. Thanks, guys. I'm just getting back on. [00:48:28] Speaker C: Not normally. Whereas if I got. [00:48:30] Speaker D: If you do a double roll, get [00:48:31] Speaker A: up and clap, I'd have been like, yeah, sorry, guys. Totally meant to do that. I'm just going to get back on. [00:48:35] Speaker C: Yeah, But I think. And it's. It is. It is difficult, but the. I think, like, everybody just wants to see horses have fun, don't they? They want to see happy horses. And so that's, I think, similar to you, Caleb. I went on that journey of when the horses were maybe struggling with the environment of a new arena or whatever was going on with them. So they were struggling at a show. When you're younger, you keep trying to push because you want to do the best that you can and you think that the audience need that level. But actually, maybe if you're pushing the horse past where it should feel comfortable with that day, then it's uncomfortable to watch as well. [00:49:11] Speaker D: Totally. [00:49:11] Speaker C: As. [00:49:12] Speaker D: Yeah. [00:49:13] Speaker C: So the audience actually get more enjoyment from seeing simpler things done well, equally. I've had performances where I get completely mugged off. And so you do your best to turn it into an impromptu comedy act. You do a lot of looking at the watch, looking at the horse, being like, please come back. Because it might sting your ego. Because you have to accept that today they're gonna crack. The crowd need to laugh at you, not with you. But that's the point. [00:49:38] Speaker A: Because you did that a little bit at your horse live, didn't you, Ben? [00:49:41] Speaker C: 100%. [00:49:42] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:49:42] Speaker C: Yeah, a lot. Yeah. [00:49:45] Speaker D: Thanks, Simon. [00:49:47] Speaker A: Great. [00:49:47] Speaker D: Thanks for putting that out again. Thanks for reliving that. [00:49:50] Speaker A: You look like a twat. Yeah, yeah. [00:49:52] Speaker C: Basically you didn't. [00:49:53] Speaker A: No, you didn't or should we write it down? [00:49:55] Speaker C: And I think it's important to learn to laugh at that. Like, it's, it's, that's where like you have to just learn to look like a twat sometimes. [00:50:04] Speaker D: I think, I think one of my, one of my performances I did, I had a team of three and I brought one of my younger horses along and I put him on the outside of a, of a team of three and my two older horses said, absolutely not. They were gone. See you later. Middle of a, middle of a performance. And my, my rising 4 year old stayed with me and just started taking my hat off and chewing, chewing my hat. And I was like, I didn't know what to do. I was a bit like, oh, God, how do I get this team back together? And the audience absolutely loved it. And it's so much more than anything that I was about to do because this little horse here was so happy to just take my hat off and start chewing it on the ground and throwing it in the sand. And they thought it was the best thing since sliced bread. [00:50:46] Speaker C: The issue there is when the director of the show comes up afterwards and he's like, Caleb, the new act loved it. Right. If we could have that every day, please. [00:50:56] Speaker A: I can never do that again. [00:50:58] Speaker C: Don't know how you worked on that and came up with it, but it was perfect. [00:51:01] Speaker D: You're like, oh, take the hat, take it again. [00:51:04] Speaker B: Caleb, in your. Obviously there's only so much scrolling through your Instagram I can do, but with your horses, is there like with Ben, I immediately know, like, Malik, that's his horse that keeps him in check, teaches him when he's being a Pratt, tells him off when he's being an Arsenal. If he's going to do something wrong, Malik will tell him like, like he's a. I feel like Malik's a horse that's taught you so much, hasn't it? Ben, have you got which one of your horses has been the one that's taken you on the best journey? Is there one that's kept you in check? Like which, which is, which is the one that if people start following you is like, yeah, that, that's, that's. [00:51:39] Speaker D: Yeah, I think it's, it's Rocket. And he's actually been on a six month break at the moment, on a little hiatus. But he's taught me so much. But probably because he was. Well, I probably sucked, but he was also quite difficult for me to teach. He was the first horse that I taught and he totally kept me in check. And so humbled all the time. And I feel so lucky that he's like, I've taken him all around the country now, performing and doing things, but I got him because this lady was taking him to the knackery. He was done. I said, hey, wait, let me. Let me go get him. I'll have a look and see what I can do. It's my favorite thing. I love a project, I don't know why, in everything in life. And I started working with him, and he has truly taught me so much about myself, because it was not a horse that you could just push or force in any way, shape, or form. But as soon as you started that conversation, he. He'd be part of it. I think he's. I'm very lucky to have had him as my first horse, because if I had something that was a bit easier, I was in for a hell of a shock. [00:52:38] Speaker C: Can I ask as well? Because we've talked a lot about you being at the Outback Spectacular, but I could have this wrong. But from what I've seen online, you have, like, a second job, which is as if not even more insane, where I see that you're always, like, riding around the pyramids or riding through Africa with safari animals. You don't do normal horsemanship, do you? [00:53:00] Speaker D: It's liberty or riding with lions. There's no such thing as a sitting trot on the long side. That's too boring. No, I think that it's the same as. Same as everything that I've done. I saw something that I thought was unattainable, and I started working towards it until it became my reality. That sounds pretty cool, but it is. I think that's kind of how it works. I. I feel like I can't do something or can't achieve something. And then my brain goes, okay, perfect. Get working. So I. I went to Africa the first time and went on this incredible safari where, you know, we're cantering with giraffe and zebra in the plains of Botswana. And I think that that has sort of turned into a bit of a. A facet of my life where I wanted to be able to do that. So now I take people back and do trips once a year over to. Well, this year, we're going to Botswana and then to Kenya with some incredible people. And the same way as the liberty work, I thought that this is, like, this is not possible. The same thing in Africa. I thought, we're not. We're not going riding with hippos and lions. That's not happening. So Made it happen. And now we take. Yeah, I take a lot of people over from Australia that also think it's not possible. [00:54:08] Speaker B: Do you. Do. You don't do any, like, ever do it at liberty or without a bridle? Because if I'm going near a line, I want a fucking bridle. I'm just gonna say that now they're. [00:54:16] Speaker D: Unfortunately, they're not my horses, so I don't. I don't really get the beauty of being able to dictate the rules. There's also a lot of red tape and a lot of safety precautions because it is the real world. It's quite dangerous out there. It's not. Norina. It's not a 20 by 60 where we've got a fence and if something goes wrong, we're all good. It's, you know, there's. There's a lot that happens out there that we have to make sure that we are 100% safe. And also taking other guests and people that. But maybe not be so experienced is. Yeah, it's a whole effort within itself. It's very fun. [00:54:49] Speaker C: I was just thinking, Jenny, implying that you take your horses with you to Botswana. I was like, I need a job at Outback Spectacular. If it's paying like that, like crazy. [00:54:58] Speaker D: Yeah, yeah, yeah, we'll take them every year. [00:55:01] Speaker C: Yeah, we get. [00:55:02] Speaker D: No, no, I go. [00:55:03] Speaker C: I go riding in Africa and other horses. My horses go to Venice for the summer. They just like to relax out there. [00:55:07] Speaker A: Do you know, I've just got visions now of Ben going Roman riding and getting charged by elephants and then them going completely the wrong direction. [00:55:16] Speaker D: Yeah. [00:55:16] Speaker C: Thanks, Simon. [00:55:19] Speaker B: And he's now got a groin injury. Simon, where would Buster go on holiday? If he was to now have his [00:55:26] Speaker C: holiday abroad, where would Buster go? [00:55:28] Speaker A: God, he'd have to be some sort of activity. He'd definitely be a skier or something like that. [00:55:33] Speaker C: He might climb Mont Blanc. [00:55:35] Speaker A: He might climb Mont Blanc. That's a really good point. [00:55:37] Speaker B: Do you get the impression that all of us. And this is like one hell of an ADHD conversation because all of us are like this. We can't sit still. We have to learn new things. We can't. Like, we have to go somewhere into a jungle. We have to. Like, I can't. I. I'm now like, I am so tired. I've just done so many talking interviews and I'm like, okay, now I want to go and ride a horse and I want to go and safari with Caleb and I want. [00:55:59] Speaker A: But it's so good, though, to be doing Stuff like that. Like on Saturday Morning, Babington. I was. I was fairly shitting myself. I was actually. I was actually quite good. I was not too bad. But I did think it could be worse. You could be just about to try and scale Mont Blanc, the, you know, the Grand Cool Bob bit, the scary bit. You could try and do that because you can't stop with that. If you decide to start doing it, then you're kind of like, you're locked in. There's no. No getting away from with it. Whereas at Badminton, if you don't feel very comfortable off jumping events three, you [00:56:25] Speaker D: can just pull up, steer away. [00:56:27] Speaker C: And also. [00:56:28] Speaker A: So it's all life experience. [00:56:30] Speaker C: It would have been worse to be sat on the sofa watching other people go around the cross country at Badminton than being scared waiting to go. [00:56:38] Speaker A: Exactly. Well, I was thinking it's a real privilege to be absolutely shitting myself. Yeah. [00:56:48] Speaker C: We should maybe get that on our merch. It's a privilege. [00:56:52] Speaker D: It's a privilege yourself. [00:56:54] Speaker C: Like, there we go. Simon Grieve, Badminton 2026. [00:56:58] Speaker D: I'd buy that T shirt. [00:57:01] Speaker C: I just love. I love the message. I love the message sort of of your life, Caleb, which is just, if you can dream it, go and do it, at least try. And you'll probably end up closer than you thought you ever would do. [00:57:13] Speaker A: That's a really cool mantra, actually. Talking ways. [00:57:16] Speaker D: Yeah. Honestly, what's the worst that can happen? Like, if it doesn't work, you're back exactly where you were. Like, I've failed so many times, it's ridiculous. But the one time that it works, you're. You're there. So, like, what. What's the worst thing that can possibly happen? Try liberty with your horse. Go and go and do something new and. And see what happens. The worst possible scenario is that you're exactly where you are. Best case, you're in Africa riding with a lion. [00:57:39] Speaker B: Yeah, I think there's a slightly worst case is you take the bridle off and you end up the other side of the indoor arena. And then in ae, that's the worst case. Actually, Caleb, I think you two feel like. [00:57:51] Speaker D: Very true. [00:57:51] Speaker B: We're not all you loved. Yeah, I know, I really noticed. Sorry, Caleb. [00:57:56] Speaker D: No, yeah, go for it. [00:57:57] Speaker B: I think what I've loved about, like, how you talk about just everything as a conversation. Like we talk about training and learning and whatever, but I feel like with your horses, it is like. I don't know, there's something about you. Like when Ben told me that we wanted to have you on I think it is just lovely that you and, like, if we could change the word negative reinforcement to something, we'll have a think about what it is. But I don't know, it's just the way you speak about your horses, it's just so lovely and is like they're your. And people say it's like they're your friend, your work colleague, and blah, blah, blah. But I think you have a very much of a sense that you wouldn't be here without them. [00:58:33] Speaker D: Yeah, that's not even a sense. I actually wouldn't be like. That's the honest truth. I think that my horses are the only reason why I get opportunities. The only reason why I'm doing things is because of them. And sometimes that's a good reminder as well, whenever we're in whatever sport or discipline it is that you're not doing this without your horse. So it's a good reminder. [00:58:52] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:58:53] Speaker A: So, Caleb, do you have, like. So obviously horses are everything. Do you have time for anything else in your life? [00:58:59] Speaker D: Sorry, what's anything else? [00:59:01] Speaker C: Sorry, Simon. He only has time to travel around the world on riding holidays in between his starring roles. [00:59:08] Speaker A: Well, I was just wondering whether maybe he's, like, really into tennis or something or. I don't know. [00:59:12] Speaker D: No, I am horrible. I don't have any other talents whatsoever. So, please, if I don't ever have horses, there's. I'm out of luck. We're done. I may as well sign sealed and delivered, because I cannot draw. I cannot paint. There's no other artistic talents whatsoever. [00:59:30] Speaker A: But you can sing, Simon. [00:59:32] Speaker C: Why are you making out like we all have lives outside of. [00:59:35] Speaker D: What are you doing? [00:59:36] Speaker B: I can't even ride a horse very well. [00:59:38] Speaker D: Maybe next podcast we could do it. We could do a little talent show. We'll all bring something on the side. [00:59:43] Speaker A: I've got to do that tonight. I'm doing my acting class tonight. [00:59:46] Speaker D: Right, Perfect. [00:59:48] Speaker A: And we all got to do. We've all got to do our. Our hidden talent. It's the talent show. And I. Because I've been thinking about badminton. I haven't really thought. [00:59:56] Speaker C: Are you gonna. You should ride in on Buster. Just ride in. This is my talent. [01:00:01] Speaker D: Yeah. [01:00:01] Speaker C: You could wear those brave pants. Wear those gray pants that you wore. The gray joggers you wore on YouTube and be like, this is my hidden talent which funds with a. Your. [01:00:13] Speaker A: Your. [01:00:14] Speaker C: Your tripod trousers. [01:00:15] Speaker A: Anyway. Anyway, back on the straight and narrow here, kids. I'm gonna. I'm gonna sing. I think you're gonna sing. Perfect. Or I'm gonna do a monologue. I come and wait. [01:00:24] Speaker B: I've done a week practice now. [01:00:26] Speaker A: I'm not practicing now. It's very early in the morning. [01:00:29] Speaker C: What song at least you gonna go for? [01:00:31] Speaker D: What song are we thinking? [01:00:34] Speaker B: Yes. [01:00:36] Speaker A: I don't know. Well, I was thinking about doing Elton John's your song. [01:00:40] Speaker C: Oh, very nice. [01:00:42] Speaker A: I like that one. [01:00:43] Speaker B: Oh, who Let the Dogs Out? [01:00:46] Speaker D: Yeah, perfect. [01:00:47] Speaker A: Exactly. That's definitely going to show off my talent. [01:00:49] Speaker D: It's either Elton John or there's no in between. [01:00:52] Speaker A: Or I could do. I was thinking, because I was singing it in the car the other day, what is it called? I Dreamed a Dream. [01:00:59] Speaker B: Yes. [01:01:00] Speaker C: I Dream of time Gone By. [01:01:02] Speaker A: Although that is for a woman to sing. But, you know, Alfie Bow sang it, [01:01:06] Speaker C: so I think you can. [01:01:07] Speaker A: Who sang it? [01:01:08] Speaker C: Alfie Bow sung it. Loads of men have sung I Dreamed a Dream. [01:01:11] Speaker B: Caleb, let's get an insight into who you are. What would you sing in a talent show around? [01:01:16] Speaker D: I don't know. It'd be something country. It'd be like a Luke Combs song. And I'd think that I'd have a piece of straw out the side of my mouth and a big old cowboy hat on and think that I'm pretty cool up there with my guitar, but it would sound horrible. [01:01:28] Speaker B: Can you play the guitar? [01:01:30] Speaker D: No. No, I can't. That's my whole point. But I'd love to. [01:01:34] Speaker C: I've just been holding it. [01:01:35] Speaker D: Yeah, exactly. [01:01:36] Speaker A: And it was like I'd look and I'd look really great, but I can't actually. [01:01:40] Speaker D: Appearance is the first step. [01:01:42] Speaker C: It's not that we don't want our friends. It's not that we don't want you to be doing well, but I was just gonna forcefully log you out if you said you could play guitar as well. You're too sick now. You can't have everything. [01:01:52] Speaker D: No, we're done. I could pretend, though, that's. That counts. [01:01:56] Speaker B: Right? So we've been going for an hour and 10, and I actually genuinely. And I'm not blowing smoke up your ass. This has probably been the quickest guest pod we've ever had. Like, I feel like we could talk to you for another, like, two hours, but I feel like. Will you come back on and just talk shit with us again? This has been amazing. [01:02:14] Speaker D: Yeah, we're not doing three hours. I've got horses to work. Yes, I would love to. That would be so fun. [01:02:22] Speaker C: At some point he's gonna come and Caleb said that at some point he's gonna come and visit me. So. So we should try and time that. That he can come and visit the UK to play Liberty Horses and we can drag him to a live. To a live podcast. [01:02:36] Speaker D: That would be fun. That would be great. Terrifying. [01:02:40] Speaker C: And then we can, if we do it at a live event, we can come back, we can test Simon's acting skills because obviously we've got the professional Caleb and we'll have to do a scene together. [01:02:52] Speaker D: We'll do a rating. [01:02:53] Speaker C: We'll provide the trained film horses. Now we're doing a scene. Some horses. We've got you two on the mics. Yeah. [01:03:02] Speaker D: What could possibly go wrong? [01:03:04] Speaker A: Exactly. What could go wrong? [01:03:06] Speaker D: And you bring my guitar. [01:03:08] Speaker C: One of ours. You've just had one of my mates with you, haven't you, Caleb? [01:03:14] Speaker D: No, I kid you not, Ben. She is literally just ducked out the door because I thought, I've got to have somewhere quiet to film this podcast. And Emily, Emily Mitchell is staying with us at the moment. She's so lovely and super talented. But it was quite uncanny that I was doing a podcast with you guys while she's visiting and staying with me. [01:03:33] Speaker C: Yeah, I thought this. I was like, we have to be honest about who I am to Caleb, because he's actually got someone there he can check with. [01:03:39] Speaker D: Yeah, yeah, [01:03:44] Speaker C: yeah. But yeah, I was just sort of like, what a bizarre world that we finally organized to interview you all the way the other side of the world. And I look on my Instagram stories and I'm like, like, Emily's at Caleb's. Wow, what a strange. [01:03:56] Speaker D: Yeah, no, she's. She's super lovely, honestly. What such a lovely girl. She's been great. [01:04:01] Speaker B: We do have a tradition on this podcast. Put your hand up if you want to go first of what's annoyed you this week, Caleb. I don't know if you've had time to listen to too many of the pods in your very busy schedule, but it is a thing. It doesn't have to be horse related. Do you want to go first, Caleb? [01:04:16] Speaker D: Yeah, I'm actually ready straight away. Does that say too much about me that I can find something I'm annoyed with straight away? [01:04:25] Speaker B: For me, it's when. [01:04:26] Speaker D: Okay, it's when. It's when people leave dishes, but they leave them in the sink rather than next to the sink so that you have to take the dishes out of the sink to put the water in to then wash the dishes. [01:04:36] Speaker A: That is such a good one. That is such a good one. [01:04:40] Speaker D: Kills me. Kills me. Leave them next to the sink, please. [01:04:43] Speaker A: But isn't that A bit like if you've got a dishwasher and somebody takes the dish that they've eaten their meal or whatever it is, and they go over to and they put it on the sideboard on top of the dishwasher, but don't put it in the dishwasher. [01:04:56] Speaker D: And then it's infuriating. Yeah. So annoying. I feel like. [01:05:01] Speaker C: I feel like I know someone who puts dishes near dishwashers. By the way, Simon said that. He's like, [01:05:09] Speaker B: right, boys, Benji, what's yours? [01:05:11] Speaker C: Cyclists. Cyclists. They can all go to the seventh circle of hell. [01:05:16] Speaker A: What? [01:05:16] Speaker C: I just. I'm done. I'm done with cyclists. They don't follow any of the rules of the road. They pick and choose what they want. When they want to take up the whole road, they're like, I have the same rights of a car. And then you get to a red light and they're like, oh, now I'm not a car. Now I can do weird pedestrian cyclist things. And even when we were at badminton, I got told off because we were trying to drive around, trying to film stuff. No. Being all professional and people are just there and they'll just, like, bike up two miles an hour in front of the car with, like, 20,000 acres of estate either side of them so they could move, so you could get passed in the car. And then I'm like, is the horn on the car broken? Because this person could move. And everyone is telling me that I'm a bad person when I'm not. I'm just thinking, you know, get out the road with your bike. And I just. They drive me so mad. And I. I want to know the statistics for how many car crashes are caused every year by cyclists. From when you have to try and, like, overtake them, when they're slowing everything down and they always take up the. No, I. I just. [01:06:19] Speaker D: Yeah, there's too much of all of that. They wear Lycra. Lycra? [01:06:24] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:06:25] Speaker C: Like, if I was gonna write a TED Talk on cyclists, it would be called Lycra Inappropriate Lycra and Entitlement. That is what I would title my TED Talk on cyclists. [01:06:36] Speaker A: Have you seen that video that's on. It's like an AI video online. And there's this man, and he's just lying in bed, obviously, in the morning, and he's like, I'm just trying to work out how I can be a giant knob today. And then it goes to him on a bike, in his Lycra. Like, cycling with a queue of Chapel Walking behind him. [01:06:50] Speaker D: Yeah. [01:06:51] Speaker B: I think it's because, like, if you, [01:06:53] Speaker C: if you're out running and you see a car, you get off the road. Walking the dog, you get off the road. If you're out on your horse, you're meant to get off the road. They just, they live in their own world. Oh, no one else. [01:07:05] Speaker A: I was on my, on my way back from Badminton, coming out the lorry park. You can either turn right and go to the village or turn left and go somewhere random. And the guy on the, on the gate was like, you don't really want to go to the village because the traffic's going to be absolutely horrendous because everyone was leaving. If you go left, I don't know what it's where there's any weight restrictions or anything, but it's gonna be clear that way. So I was like, fuck it, I'm gonna go left. So I went left and I like went wiggling around in these tiny little lanes and then I came around the corner. I don't know why I'm telling you this story. Sorry. I came around the corner and then there was this woman, obviously husband, wife, and they were walking their dogs and the man like stood in the road, like stood with one foot on the road and it was like a single track lane. And I was in a 26 ton truck and he just stood there and he just didn't move. And then I slowed right down because I couldn't get past him without him moving. And then he, and then him and his wife like, is everything okay? I was like, yeah, everything's fine. Just get out of the fucking way. [01:07:51] Speaker D: Yeah, you just didn't move. [01:07:53] Speaker A: I don't want to kill you, but [01:07:56] Speaker B: my favorite thing is if you're in a shop or like having coffee in London and then you buy lights, you can see outside and you get the cyclists who are plugged into their bike and they, they think they've timed it perfectly to stop and they're kind of trying to keep the bike really. And then they haven't and they can't get their feet out in time and they just fall out over. That's one of my favorite things. [01:08:17] Speaker D: You did a video of that? That's. That I'd like to see. [01:08:21] Speaker C: Yeah. If anyone's in London, cyclists get in the bin. Done. Basically. [01:08:28] Speaker B: Simon, is yours what's annoyed you? That. Matt, what's yours? [01:08:31] Speaker A: Oh, no, no, no, no. That didn't annoy me. I don't really know what's annoyed me, to be fair. [01:08:35] Speaker B: It's probably A good thing. You can be your Zen and not have one. [01:08:38] Speaker A: Well, like on the way back last night, I think I've said this before. [01:08:41] Speaker C: I had. [01:08:42] Speaker A: I had this little car in the slow lane of the motorway and I pulled out in my truck, which is limited to overtake, and then I got like kind of halfway up and then they start speeding up. [01:08:53] Speaker C: Oh, so annoying. [01:08:54] Speaker A: Really, really, really annoys me. [01:08:56] Speaker D: Yeah. [01:08:56] Speaker A: So do you want me to ram you because you're going back the right [01:08:58] Speaker C: way or if you're in the lorry or towing and someone overtakes you and say you're doing like 55 and then they overtake you, pull in front and then slow down to finish, and then [01:09:09] Speaker A: slow down and you're like, what? It's so annoying. [01:09:12] Speaker C: I agree. [01:09:13] Speaker B: I'm exhausted. This has been like the most high energy podcast I think we've ever done. I think all of us need to like take some. I don't know what is, what is ADHD medication? [01:09:23] Speaker C: Oh, Jenny, you, Jenny, you sound terrible. [01:09:25] Speaker A: My darling. [01:09:26] Speaker D: She's like, I'm just so tired. [01:09:29] Speaker B: I've done so much talking. [01:09:30] Speaker D: You guys are having too much fun. [01:09:32] Speaker B: I don't know what's annoying me. So many things. There's a lot of badminton related ones. But I think what annoyed me most was my inability to be funny in the right moment. So one of the riders was quite rude to me, I won't say who it is. And they didn't realize I could see them. And there was two riders talking. One's more of a trainer, one was one of the riders and I could see they were looking at me and they looked me up and down and he went, what about that one? And the other rider went, no, she's too old. And that annoyed me. What annoyed me most was my response. I was like, oh, no, just. And they were like, oh, we weren't talking about you. I was like, you clearly were. You were looking directly at me and you pointed at me. But I wish in that moment I'd said something really funny like, well, I'm old, but at least I'm not ugly or something. I wish I'd just come back with a really witty comeback and gone old. [01:10:19] Speaker A: But at least I'm not an asshole. [01:10:21] Speaker B: Yes. At least I'm not a twat. [01:10:23] Speaker C: You can keep your flaccid two inches, you pervy prick. [01:10:27] Speaker D: Yeah, the amount of times I drive away in a car and replay a conversation and think about all of the things I could have said and these amazing comebacks. [01:10:36] Speaker A: So annoying. Isn't It. [01:10:38] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:10:39] Speaker C: Would it be. Would it be inappropriate to text this to someone? But it's like you wake up at three in the morning and you're like, I've got it. And yeah, you're like, I can message them. Do you remember when we were talking earlier? I should have said this. You. [01:10:50] Speaker D: Do you remember on the 1st of February 2025 when we had a conversation? [01:10:55] Speaker C: Yes. [01:10:56] Speaker B: Oh, you know. [01:10:58] Speaker D: Yeah. [01:10:59] Speaker B: I wish I'd been really witty and punchy and I was like, I think I'm shit 90% of the time. I don't need you doing it for me. Fuck off. [01:11:08] Speaker C: Yeah, but Jenny, just add it to the tell all book. Remember when you decide you've had enough, you'd be like, everyone that was a knob. You all thought, I've decided I don't want to do this anymore. So here are all the facts. [01:11:23] Speaker A: Yeah, there'll be a whole chapter on us, Ben. In fact, probably a couple. [01:11:27] Speaker C: There will be our own book, Simon. It will be called Dickheads who Do Not Answer the Phone. [01:11:34] Speaker A: Yeah, Nobby and Nobby. [01:11:36] Speaker B: Caleb is not going to feature in that book. Apart from in the Riders I like section. [01:11:40] Speaker A: Jenny, you say all the right things. [01:11:42] Speaker D: Yeah, that was smooth. Very nice. [01:11:45] Speaker B: Thank you. Thank you. We actually, before we go, we have quite the following in Australia. I feel like we need to somehow manufacture us coming over to you as well. I feel like there is like a few people have said we need to take our tour round to Australia. I think if we do though, Caleb, you are 100% coming on it. [01:12:04] Speaker D: I'm so keen and I have a venue you can host it from and we'll do it just before the show and then you guys can come and see the show and the helicopter and we're in. [01:12:13] Speaker A: Are we allowed to fly in the helicopter? [01:12:15] Speaker D: Look, I'm not gonna make any promises, but I'll see what I can do. [01:12:17] Speaker B: Oh, it's been so nice meeting you. Thank you so much. Will you come on again? Honestly, this has been great. Thank you. [01:12:24] Speaker D: I would love to. That would be awesome. Yes, please. I'll think of more things that annoy me between now and then. [01:12:30] Speaker B: I think you came up with that pretty quickly. I think that's not a problem for you. Right, My lovely boys. I feel like we now have a new Australian member of the team. So thank you so much for coming on. I've got. I had a whole like army of other questions because your life has been so interesting, but I feel like we'll just have to do a part two and get you on again, but for now, Caleb, thank you so much. [01:12:54] Speaker D: Thanks for having me. I seriously, I really appreciate it. It's so, I guess, humbling when people that you really look up to have invited you to be on a podcast. So I'm very grateful, and I feel super, super excited, and it was really, really fun. So I appreciate it very much. Thank you. [01:13:09] Speaker B: Can we now? There is a slight delay, so I'm not sure it's going to work, but I'm wondering, can we experience the singing voice and can we sing a sound? With Caleb, all that is left to do is say shut up and ride. [01:13:31] Speaker D: We won't quit our day jobs.