From Mustangs to Badminton and the fun and tears in-between : Elisa Wallace

[00:00:00] Speaker A: Simon, have you heard of British Eventing's new initiative Be Prepared? [00:00:04] Speaker B: Yes Jenny, I have. It's a free program from British Eventing designed to help riders learn, connect and grow in the sport. [00:00:11] Speaker A: So whether you're a member or not, Be Prepared supports grassroots riders with the knowledge, skills and confidence to enjoy eventing at every stage. As a former competitor myself, I know how valuable good preparation can be. [00:00:26] Speaker B: And through the free learning hub you can access bite sized videos, expert advice and practical checklists when, whenever it suits you. [00:00:33] Speaker A: Plus there will be some in person camps bringing learning to life with coaching workshops and Q and A sessions from industry professionals. [00:00:42] Speaker B: From preparation and planning to mindset fitness and competition, know how it's all about practical learning that works because as we [00:00:50] Speaker A: know Simon, being prepared and preparation really [00:00:53] Speaker B: does build confidence and confident riders make better decisions. [00:00:56] Speaker A: So get Be Prepared today with British Eventing and head over to their website britisheventing.com. Welcome to the Shut Up A Ride podcast. I am very excited about today. Like I am very, very, very excited because we listen to the people Benji's on today but we have a guest because we listen to the people and we've had so many requests to have this rider on. Thank you so much for tuning in guys. Don't forget to follow share like and all of those things that you're meant to do on a podcast that I'm terrible at speaking about. And of course we're brought to you with the wonderful Charles Owen. Benji, I'm first of all just going to say hi but I don't want you to talk for too long because I want our guest on so much. [00:01:49] Speaker B: Hello, I'm good. I don't want to. I'm sort of deliriously chipper today as we were at a show yesterday and I was on the yard at 2:30 in the morning yesterday and then finished at 11:30 last night. So I'm a bit delirious. But we'll be good. [00:02:07] Speaker C: Those are the long ones. [00:02:09] Speaker A: Yeah, well, yeah, you can hear our guest has an accent as well. Obviously this podcast goes around the world, but the majority of our listeners are in the uk. So if you haven't heard of this lady, go and look her up right now. She is everything I want to be with horses, especially since going on this journey with Ben and learning more about the side of horses that I would love to know be better at having evented myself. How to describe this lady? She's a five star eventer. [00:02:40] Speaker C: Tic. [00:02:41] Speaker A: She is a championing wonder woman for the mustang. She's done The Road to the Horse, which I think a lot of our listeners won't have even heard of. She cries in interviews, which I love because I am a crier. I'm sorry, but I have to say it. She's so passionately in love with her horses that she wears her heart massively on her sleeve because she's such a brilliant advocate for horses and how to train. Elisa Wallace, you are very quickly becoming one of my favorite humans to follow on social media and in our wonderful world of eventing. The. Thank you so much for coming on the podcast. It means so much to have you on. [00:03:21] Speaker C: Thanks for having me. I really appreciate it. [00:03:25] Speaker A: First of all. Oh, there's so much I want to ask you. There's so much. Don't even know what to start. [00:03:33] Speaker B: First of all, you are one of my wife's heroes. Last year at Road to the Horse, you are my wife's hero. And she says, you were robbed. And she's like, you definitely should have won. And she loved watching you start to finish. [00:03:47] Speaker C: Oh, that was. That's so nice of her. It was. It was a wonderful experience to. To do that for sure. [00:03:55] Speaker A: And [00:03:57] Speaker C: I. A lot of people thought I should have won. You know, it was. I. I was really proud of my horse at the end of it, and. And I got to bring her home, and so it was great. [00:04:10] Speaker A: Okay, we're gonna have to explain all of this. So, Elisa, first of all, there's a [00:04:13] Speaker C: lot to unpack there. [00:04:14] Speaker A: Sorry, There's a lot to unpack. First of all, tell us about yourself. For those of you who. Especially for our UK listeners who might. And we have a lot of people who aren't eventing fans on here. I don't want them to suddenly go, oh, I'm gonna switch off. This is an eventer, and Simon's not on the pod, so I'm. I want people to listen all about you, but tell us a little bit about kind of who you are, what you do, and. And then we'll dip in and out to all the different sections of your life, because you are also the busiest human on earth. [00:04:44] Speaker C: Ah, thanks. You know, social media can show all kinds of sides. You know, um, I grew up. I was a trainer's kid, so I was lucky to have horses when I was little. But that also means you get to have all the ones that no one else wants to ride, so you have to. You had to learn that way, and horses get sold and all that kind of stuff. So kind of grew up a little bit riding all the thoroughbreds and all that stuff. And always wanted to make the Olympics in eventing, and I haven't gotten to do that yet, but ridden in a couple of five stars, so that was really cool. And then I had a, I had a time period before it was before I ever got to five star level. And a friend of mine did some. Trained the mustangs. Because over here we have a lot of mustangs and it's a big Hudson thing that. Not huzzah. But like, I mean, it's an issue with the management of the mustangs, with the government and all those things. So we had what. [00:05:54] Speaker A: Because essentially they're wild. Am I right? You still have wild mustangs? [00:05:59] Speaker C: We have wild mustangs. They're mainly out in the west. They're out in the west and so, you know, we have to deal with overpopulation and how to manage them on the herd management areas. And it. That's a whole, that's a whole segment in its own. But long story short, I. The programs came up with these makeovers where we get trainers get a wild mustang and you have 120 days to train them and then at the end they have to go up for auction and be adopted out. So it was to help kind of highlight the trainability of these horses and show them how amazing they are. And I watched a couple of the journeys. It's really fun to watch a horse going from wild and you know, busting through panels to then doing all these amazing things after just 120 days. And it was a period of time where, um, my upper level horses were sidelined from injury and I just had some young horses. And my friend was like, hey, I just signed you up for a, a makeover competition. And I was like, okay, well, it's been on the bucket list to train a mustang. So that, that should help me as a trainer kind of build my reputation. If I can train a mustang, that'll show everybody I can train pretty much anything. So I thought to myself, you know, what am I gonna do? I'm. Because at that time I had a. I was at an owner's barn and I was like, you know, don't worry, not gonna keep. What am I gonna do with a little mustang? Like, well, so it was random draw and I got a 133 hand 3 year old and he was actually a stallion at the time because the BLM missed that he had testicles. So I brought home wild 13, three hand stallion and BLM went whoops. So I, about a month in, the thought then of having not keeping his name was fledge not keeping pledge brought me to tears. And I was like, okay, well, I'm gonna have to figure out how to keep him if I have to, like, lease him out or what, what have you. And by the end of the 120, he. That horse really opened up my eyes to the things that. How fast horses can learn. And yeah, it was pretty magical, I have to say, because then by the end of the 120 days, we ended up winning the makeover. I had to fight for him to. To buy him back in the auction. And I was like, crying. I. It's. I always cry when it comes to Fledge generally. And then he. He really kind of set me apart as being a little bit different as an event writer. And so what was funny was, you know, we're always fighting really hard to try to get sponsors and owners, but Fledge was the one that helped me stand out. And I was able to get my first sponsor of EcoGold, the fantastic saddle pads. And then that actually led me to getting the ride on my thoroughbred simply price list. So it was a domino effect. And I still have Fledge, and he's been very helpful in how I start my horses. And he helps train my students because he's such a good boy. And yeah, so it's. It's definitely been a journey that was back in 2012. So a lot of like, because of Fledge helped me for road to the horse type of stuff because then I got all of the education of training the mustangs and. And I had really smart horses, so they make me look like a really good trainer, so. Oh. [00:10:01] Speaker A: So we're obviously anyone who follows you. You start a lot of horses and you've. I definitely feel like you've championed a lot of horses that maybe someone else would have overlooked. And then you do a lot of work, bridle less and. And saddle less. Was it him that kind of taught you how to work in that way, in the kind of more liberty training way and taught you different techniques that maybe you wouldn't have learned other if you hadn't have worked with the mustangs or had you already always gone that way? He. [00:10:31] Speaker C: He definitely helped me with. I learned a lot about mirroring with Fledge, which I had never experienced with any other horse before the. My horse prior. The first horse that was mine, because like I said, I grew up with it as a trainer's kid, was a thoroughbred that I had bought and put in my basement because I didn't have a barn at the time. So he lived in my basement. [00:11:01] Speaker B: Wow, we have to park for a minute. We gotta pause there. How do you get a horse in the basement? [00:11:08] Speaker C: Well, okay, so we had a big garage door that. It was kind of like a two story house, right? So the basement went to the backyard and I built two stalls in there because I had my mom's horse too. So I was taken care of. So I bought a yearling thoroughbred, went to college at the same time and then just kind of trained him and found a barn that was my first. He ended up being my first advanced horse. And I did a lot of stuff bareback and I learned to do the neck rope and stuff like that on Jack and then fledge taught me like the mirroring and how he would mimic what I did. Like that type of connection just went even that much further with fledged the mustang. So if there's a will, there's a way, you guys, like there's. [00:12:03] Speaker B: I think it's so important to point out to our UK listeners because there's like a couple of things. Firstly, I've been lucky enough to work in the States a bit and I didn't realize in my silly Englishness I was like, oh, mustang, that's like a type of. No, like I've met 12 hand mustangs. I've met 16 mustangs. They can be broad, short, everything like depending on where they're from. And also people will be thinking like, oh, I've bred horses or I've been around young stock in the uk, I know what an untrained horse is like. No, no you don't. Like, if you have a foal on a yard in the uk, it's going to be the most well handled horse in the world because it's the cutest horse. Everybody's going to stroke them and patent them. They're going to be halter broken by the time they're six months and they're weaned. Like it's a completely different game. And that's what blows my mind. Someone to have such that, that, that wide range of skills from like the five star eventing, which I can ask you. Nothing particularly intelligent about because I know nothing about it. Really love to watch it. But the, the idea of the mustang makeover is insane. 120 days to get a horse that would rather climb a fence than allow you to touch it than to be doing all this mad stuff in front of an audience and then rode to the horse. Similar, but three days. Three days and not three days, if I remember correctly. It's more like it was an hour [00:13:37] Speaker C: And a half each day. [00:13:38] Speaker B: Yeah, it's four and a half hours. [00:13:40] Speaker A: Yeah. Explain what road to the Horse is because again, I feel like this leads quite nicely into it because again, insane [00:13:47] Speaker C: Road to the Horse is a training horse competition. It's a cult starting competition. So people, you'll hear people even calling mares colts because that's, that's just the lingo that they use. Any young horse is called a colt. So it's a cult starting competition. We had three days, you have an hour and a half each day to train the horse, to eventually finish up on the third day, to do walk, track, canter under saddle, and then to do an obstacle course. So you're, you're judged, judged on things like haltering, acceptance of rider going forward, like the horse's mentality and, and stress level through it all and horsemanship and all that stuff. So, you know, funny going into that competition, I had people go, elisa, how are you getting ready for the road to the horse? And I was like, well, I had, I had a pretty wild mustang that was in and, and so he was really good at having me work on timing. Because the thing about the mustangs, you have to be very, very self aware of your body. So, and they can range in the spectrum of, of energy levels and sensitivities because you can have some that are, you could walk in, you know, if you establish yourself right, you can walk in, get a halter on and you're okay. Like those are the cheater ones. Then you've got the ones that are highly flight and typically the more aggressive types. Horses, mustangs I prefer because they're out there versus if you have a more flight type horse, they're more introvert and they're harder to kind of sometimes get to connect and because they're willing to just run away from you versus kind of coming at you type of thing. So, um, I've had a couple of really tough flighty mustangs or if you're standing in the pen and you think you're quiet, but then like say your, your kneecap flinches, boom, that horse is gone. Like it's, it's crazy. Like you're breathing all of that stuff. So I had that horse that was pretty tough, that was helping me. And then I also had a couple of my event horses that I had just had come over from the UK in adjustment time when they get imported some, you know, we had some walking on our hind legs and we had some bucking happening. So I was, I was pretty sharp. By the time we got to road to the horse. Oh. But I also had broken ribs that had just healed, which I forgot because I had a horse. [00:16:39] Speaker B: I'd be so disappointed if I just imported a horse from the UK to America and then I went to see it in quarantine and it was walking on its back legs and bucking and being crazy. I'd be like, oh, no, what have I just got? [00:16:53] Speaker C: Yeah. There is an adjustment period for them. It's very different over here. So the ground's really hard, and then when you think about, like, they go from their, you know, it doesn't. It's inevitable. Like, your farrier's gonna shoot them different. The bodywork's gonna be different, the ground's different. So they have ulcers. So it's all those things we have to kind of navigate to kind of help them get a little bit better. [00:17:18] Speaker B: But, yeah, it's just insane. So should we, can we just start to go back a little bit? Because when you've been talking about mirroring, I, I think I know what you mean. I, I, I know what you mean, but I, but for our audience, I think we should, we should talk about it a bit. And that's why I wanted to bring up the fact that when you start these horses, I've got what I call a fake mustang at home at the moment. [00:17:43] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:17:43] Speaker B: In that someone carelessly just bred a load of horses and left them on a big field. Not touched. And he's like, he's like my pretend mustang and the own. And so, yeah, talk us through a little bit of that process of how, like, even getting, like, how you can use that mirroring to get, get a conversation going with the horse before you get near them so that then you can convince them that you getting near them is, Is all right. [00:18:12] Speaker C: Right. So every horse kind of has its own type of bubble. Right. So energy and heart rate's really important. And so the way horses communicate in the beginning is through movement and pressure and direction generally. So we kind of have to find a common ground of communication. And then it's a matter of. I'm just thinking of back, like, when I had the hard ones to, like, the, the responses that I want them to give me. And then if you can get that connection of when they take a deep breath, you take a deep breath, or you, you know, oftentimes you, that energy, and it's like, oh, I feel like I need a yawn or something. And that's what your horse can. Then, then they do, because you feel that that kind of pit in the stomach type of thing. And mustangs or feral horses are interesting too, because sometimes even just the touch of your hand on them is too much energy in the beginning. So you. You can have horses where when you touch and they go like this, they. They ball up. It just that energy through your hand, your heart rate or that spark from your heart is just too much. Um, so that's where you can use an inanimate object like a stick or what have you to. To then touch. And then you can help them by. When I've touched them before and I can take a deep breath. And then you have this feeling of what's called melting. Sure. You've had that before when you have a horse that's very stressed and then it goes. Just lets it all out. It's always something that I, I have to balance between what the work that I get with my mustangs and then like when my event horses get stressed and up, like, I want the same reaction. So, you know, it's trying to. To get that, but it really is. Getting that horse to even look at you and connect is the first, is the biggest part. [00:20:32] Speaker B: Yeah. So I think it's. And I love you saying that you use the same techniques with say, like a mustang or a feral horse as you would with your eventers, because that's something that always makes me smile when people talk about different horses. At the end of the day, a horse is a horse. [00:20:46] Speaker C: Right. [00:20:46] Speaker B: It doesn't matter if it's a miniature or a Clydesdale, if it's a warmblood. If you can tell me all of their grandparents or none of them, it's still a horse. And I find, I just think it's such a wonderful thing to talk about because I think it sort of shows how we can. A big thing we talk about on the podcast is how we want all horse world to come closer together and realize how we're all actually similar, not different, and how things like maybe, you know, if you're listening to this, take a bit more of an interest in. In that colt starting style of training and look at things like Road to the Horse, the mustang makeover, partly because it'll blow your mind, but also because like on our last podcast, we did a bit of a Q and A with our audience, and one of the questions was about a horse getting anxious at the start box and stuff in the cross country. And these same skills are just as useful. So, like, for me personally, I love mirroring for a horse at any level of education that's got nervous about being Caught in the paddock. It's a great, it's, it's. That's a taste. If you've, if you've had a horse that's bad to catch, that's a taste of what you're talking about with these, with starting these horses and, and stuff. [00:21:57] Speaker C: Right. [00:21:58] Speaker B: But, and I also saw like, I'd, I've had a good social media stalk earlier. I, I loved, I saw you teaching Spanish walk to a lovely big bay horse and talking about like, how you can use that to build, like, you know, free up the shoulders and stuff like that. And I think it's so wonderful to see someone who's at that five star level who's still willing to dip their toe and well, dive fully in and play with all, you know, alternative types of training. Because it doesn't matter what the horse needs, if the horse needs it, you'll do it well. [00:22:36] Speaker C: Right. Like for me, it's having a really deep toolbox because every horse is going to be completely different. And that horse, that's my four star mare and she's always kind of struggled with shoulder tightness. So getting her to, and also getting her to engage. She's Irish, so she's heavily opinionated too. [00:22:59] Speaker A: So [00:23:03] Speaker C: having her like her thing is when she gets frustrated, it doesn't matter what it is, like she'll rear or she'll throw a. And it's like if I can just show her that, hey, like maybe just try a different way to communicate with me. And so I really kind of spent the summer with her trying to get her to learn how to communicate and show some things if she does get frustrated, that she's got different tools that she can use sometimes. Because oftentimes horses, when they get frustrated or stuck, they just go to what they know. And then when you're in that stressful environment and that anxiety, they just go to the tool that they know that's gotten them out of it or, you know, that's given them some release. So you try to make the positive patterns, the one that they can go to versus the negative ones. [00:24:00] Speaker B: You put that perfectly. [00:24:02] Speaker C: Yeah, I try. It doesn't always mean I can execute, but yeah, oftentimes I'm like looking over and I. My horses are having some issues and everyone else is like dead quiet and I'm like, I'm trying. [00:24:19] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:24:21] Speaker C: Oftentimes I feel like I'm kind of the only one that's dealing with my horses being anxious because everyone else looks really quiet and good and they're not. I don't know. [00:24:32] Speaker B: Yeah. And it is, it's really important not to get sucked into that Instagram versus reality. So we had a, I had an open day the other day and had all of, we have like an online training academy and it was all the members that came like to the event and I was working some youngsters in that and had a, one of the youngsters gave me a really hard time and all my students were like, oh my goodness, that was so lovely to see because it always goes perfectly for you. And I'm like, guys, no it doesn't. I just wouldn't make much money if I posted me failing online all the time. Like you signed on to learn from me because it goes well. But yeah, it's such a challenge and it's that whole idea of every horse is a riddle and they're all different, aren't they? And just trying to figure out what's going to get the best out of that animal in that, in that scenario and then also combination for that person as well. Because you need that like you say, not only the physical body awareness but the mental body awareness. So I have little things that I think about. Doesn't matter if I'm riding or if I'm doing groundwork if my hands start to grip too tightly. So if I find that I'm like white knuckling it on the stick or if I'm on the reins and I'm like sweaty palmed, gripping, I'm like, oh, we've lost it. Like it might all be physic. I might be in perfect position, the horse might be going beautifully but we've lost it. And if I've lost it in my head, there's a 99% chance that they've, you know, lost that sensation as well. [00:26:11] Speaker C: Yeah, I mean it's always really interesting knowing kind of what you do and having control over yourself. I think, you know, if that people saying about anxiety with the start box, I always take like deep breaths before I go. And again I've had horses like my mare, she used to rear before we go into the start because she just wanted to go and it's like, no, you can't go. She goes, well fine, I'll stand on my hind leg. So I do lots of things where I, I take her to it and I take her away and then I take a lot of deep breaths and then try to. Then we go on and make it about transitions and deep breaths. But also having that third eye about like how it looks and how it feels is really important. But yeah, it's when things go sideways. Sometimes it's like, oh, okay, here we go. [00:27:11] Speaker A: Do you train people as well, Lisa? [00:27:15] Speaker C: I do. I have a couple of students at home, but I. I mainly have the horses, and then I go and I teach clinics throughout the year. So that. That's a lot of fun. And the. The biggest thing is sometimes people don't realize that we. We all make mistakes, and we all make this same mistakes that everyone makes, you know, like, you know, I. I just had a weekend where my mare was in heat and she wasn't quite on the same page on cross country, and I ended up getting a 20. But I also made a mistake. You know, the reason why I had the 20. And, you know, it's like, just because we've done all these things doesn't mean mistakes aren't going to happen. And horses are horses, and it's a horse show. So sometimes horse showing happens, too, where you work so hard, you practice so hard to get it right, and sometimes it pays off. And you're like, yes, all the. I'm getting the reward. It's paying off in the right way. And then sometimes you get to that show and you're like, this is just a lot of hard work. [00:28:28] Speaker A: It's. [00:28:28] Speaker B: It's unfair, isn't it? [00:28:30] Speaker C: It's a lot of hard work. Where is the reward? Because I'm not. I'm not. I'm not feeling it right now. [00:28:36] Speaker B: It's so unfair because if you don't train and prepare, it will definitely go wrong. But even if you do all the training and preparation, it's still a coin flip because we have bad days. They're allowed bad days as well. I always think it's funny, whether it be a competition or a clinic, because the person will arrive and say, I'm so nervous. I'm so nervous today about doing this. And then they'll kick off when the horse is nervous in the lesson. Like, you knew, you booked onto this six months ago, paid, you loaded the horse on the trailer on the float, you drove him here, You. You had it. You knew exactly what you were signing up for. This poor animal was just like, oh, road. I can see a road through a window. Oh, here we are. We're learning this today. I would love to be a fly on a wall at one of your clinics, because I'm guessing that it's. One moment, it's a cult starting, the next minute, it's. I'm having trouble with the combinations in the show jumping. When I get over this level, can you come and help me. It must be a wide spectrum. [00:29:36] Speaker C: Yeah, mostly mine are. Are eventing based types. So. But I really focus on. Honestly, like the biggest thing I work on in clinics is people's position in like their leg position. That's probably one of the biggest thing I. I work on. [00:29:55] Speaker B: What are your biggest. What are your like equestrian pet peeves? Yeah, like position your leg position pet peeves. [00:30:03] Speaker C: Oh, well, okay. Well, people tend to the people when you see like their legs swinging when they're galloping and stuff, they're putting weight on their pinky toe. So then that causes. When you put your weight on your pinky toe, then it causes the knees to go in and then your legs swing. Versus which most of our students are women. So if I talk to them and be like, hey, pretend like you're wearing high heels because you want the big toe and ball your foot. That's where your balance is. You can pivot and do all kinds of things. If you have that balance of the stirrup on your big toe and ball of your foot. And then you can have your knee a little bit open. And then what that does is it changes from having that kind of pivot point of your knee so as only the space that's touching the horse to then if you open the knee a little bit, then you've got your full, like inside, outside, thigh and all the way down to the calf. And it allows you to have a lot more of a secure position. And so that's like the. My biggest pet peeve is kind of like foot position on the stirrup because it can make a world of difference. [00:31:12] Speaker A: I love that. That was not the pet peeve I thought you were going to have. So the thing that blows my mind is I don't know how to word this without it being very long. So I. When I got into the horse industry, I went and trained over in Ireland and that's how I learned to produce horses and start them. And the very traditional way of doing things, as it were. And then obviously I'd heard of kind of the Pirellis and the Monty Roberts and everything, but I've always, and I've always been very empathetic. I've always done my horses very similar, slowly. And I've always done the techniques that people have taught me over the years. And then I met Mr. Atkinson about 10 years ago, probably later, but when I was coming out of riding for a career and more into television. So I was filming with Ben and watching him train blew my mind because I've seen all these People train. Like I've worked with lots of riders who train in a different way, like using round pens and all of that. But it was only when I saw then and just the way like you were saying, his body position affects a horse and the mirroring. And then like even recently we went on tour. Shut up and ride. Went on tour and Ben worked his horses two nights on the trot in this arena. And the difference in his body both days because the horses just came out so differently, just blew my mind. And I was like, those horses have just come out with a completely different personality. And we did this influencer and she was helping train and the horses were angry at her every time she moved her feet. And I was like, there's so much I don't understand of how to train a horse from the ground. I realize that now, but I feel like you're the one of the very few people I've seen online who is training horses like Ben, but also competitive at the top level. I don't think there's many people that I've seen that are doing both because I think sometimes as well that competitive edge of people, maybe they're not as open to the longevity it takes to, to train horses in the weight because it does take longer doing it. How you guys do it, I think. I don't know what I'm trying to say, but I just wish I'd known about this way of training when I was producing horses in Ireland. Do you know what I mean? I just wish I. Your guys skill. [00:33:25] Speaker C: Sure. You know, it's funny because sometimes it's like I need to be. I feel like I need to be more disciplined and you know, stay in the saddle, which. But then there are some days I'm like, I just want to ride bareback and play. I just want to play with my pony. [00:33:44] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:33:44] Speaker C: And that's a lot of the. When I teach, when I go to clinics, you know, the biggest thing that people forget is that why we started training horses. Why? Because a hundred percent it's fun. It's fun. I mean, that's what, that's what gets you in. Right. Like, we love horses and, and it, it can be, you know, when we're preparing for those big events and trying to really train. And I think it's important for our horses too though, to want to enjoy training as well and when we can make it different. Like I said, my mare is incredibly smart. So getting her to be on my side with me has always been a bit of a task. And so keeping things different or being able to take the pressure off. It helps everybody, I feel like. And I don't know, maybe I just. I mean, honestly, I. I rode my horses a lot bareback in the beginning because my saddle didn't fit and I. I only could afford one saddle and I borrowed a dressage saddle back in the day. So that's how. That's why I had to ride bareback. And, you know, you develop a really good seat when you're bareback and that. It also kind of can show you things sometimes. [00:35:07] Speaker B: So are you comfy a bareback or in the saddle? [00:35:12] Speaker C: What's that? [00:35:13] Speaker B: Are you comfier bareback or in the saddle? [00:35:15] Speaker C: Depends on the horse I'm on. Yeah, there are some that I would prefer my saddle. Um, but I would say, like my mustang fledge much better bareback. He's like my glove that way. Um, so, you know, it just. There's just those days where if I've had to ride like 10 horses and I've been doing my trot sets and gallop sets and it's like I can just go play in the. Play bareback and Bridalist. It's just nice. It's nice. Keep it different. [00:35:48] Speaker A: It's so interesting hearing just that line you said about it, why do we do it? And it was something that we, we covered, we've covered many a time the things that have not gone well in the horse world, like the Charlotte Dujardin incident and the. And the mat one and everyone's after their blood. I was like, fundamentally, though, those people that end up doing these things don't. Never started out not liking horses. You don't get into this industry, you don't get good at horses unless you love them to start with. [00:36:22] Speaker C: Right. [00:36:23] Speaker A: And I think that's what we have to remember. And I think sometimes when people are competing at the top level and that pressure is on them to perform and ride other people's horses and produce medals and produce results. I think sometimes those people, not just the horses, need reminding of why they do it and why they love it. And that can be quite hard, especially when it's your. Your. The whole livelihood depends on these things. [00:36:45] Speaker C: Yeah. And I mean, again, like, we all make mistakes. You know, I've been. I've done that before where the experience that I had didn't help me out in the situation that I was in. And, you know, it was my badminton run with my horse. I had done three, five stars prior and he got tired on cross country and. But it was weird because I was like why isn't he. Once I felt him get tired, I didn't even look at my watch, and I was like, all right, you know, I'm just gonna focus on him. And normally he takes a deep breath at nine minutes, and we're back up. And it's so funny, because in those moments, you're like, oh, I know I'm gonna know. But I kept checking. I'm like, oh, he's jumping good. He's still kind of taking me a little bit, even though he's tired. And. And, you know, it's like, you're at badminton, you're fighting for it. Like, of course it's going to feel hard. And then I came, and he came to the last fence, and I wasn't. I got to just the right distance, and he caught a toe, and I fell off. And he was exhausted, and I was pretty upset. Like, I was mad that I. Which people don't understand because they thought that I was mad at my horse, which, gosh, no. Like, I'm not. I was really upset that I did that for nothing to my horse. Like, because I. And I had no clue the reason why he was so tired was. And again, I was. It. You know, it. The third eye was a little blind. Like, I didn't realize. Like, it didn't look good. How I. And you just don't know until you've experienced what happened. And my horse had gone into afib, and that's why he couldn't catch his breath. But the reason why he went into afib was because he had a magnesium deficiency, which wasn't an anomaly. And, you know, that was a really, really tough, dark time for me because I had people telling me I needed to kill myself, that I didn't deserve my horse. Yeah. I'm gonna start crying. [00:39:04] Speaker A: Oh, God, you're gonna make me cry. [00:39:06] Speaker C: But you know that you just are. You're trying to do right by your horse, and you did the wrong thing. And. Yeah, sorry. Even that was, what, nine years ago? And it's like it was yesterday, but, you know, all I could do is try to be better for the next time. So I made sure I fixed my horse. That was Johnny. And sorry. [00:39:41] Speaker A: Oh, no, never apologize. This just shows because I got this. Like, I've never met you before, but I've followed you on Social, and I've watched so many interviews with you, and it is just so apparent how much you love your horses and such a big occasion. I think only people who've been to Badminton or have. Or have competed at Badminton can really understand what it means to even be riding there and how different it can be. And, like, you are a competitor at the end of the day and not knowing, but then in the cold light of day, what's happened, it must have been so hard for you. So hard. [00:40:16] Speaker C: Yeah. Well, and I was able to. Like I said, we figured out it was an anomaly that happened. And he came back and competed again at Kentucky and was 26. And, like, he retired when he was 20, I think is when he was retiring. But, you know, that horse would never tell me no. And that's such a big responsibility, like, because again, we always think, oh, they're gonna tell me, like, he was tired, but he would have literally keep going and just. Because, like, that's where. And it just. That that also changed me a lot too, as far as, you know, being a competitor. You had your competitor hat and your horsemanship hat, and the horsemanship one always needs to win. [00:41:21] Speaker A: Yeah, but it doesn't with everybody. And I hate to say it, but that's maybe the problem we have in the horse world sometimes is that with some riders, the horsemanship hat doesn't always win. [00:41:31] Speaker C: Yeah. And again, it's. It's hard when you're in the moment, because sometimes when you're in the moment, you think you're doing the right thing. And rider responsibility is really important. And, you know, I'm super sensitive to it now. So when we've had the ground jury pull up horses and stuff like that, like, at the end of the day, our riders need to be doing it, which they are. It's. It's been good to watch because I think more and more people are doing being better and better, and that's the biggest thing is to do better, like, know better. Do better. Right. Like, so. And again, like, I got accused of not having a fit horse for badminton, and my horse was the fittest he had ever been. And it was just kind of one of those, you know, I had gone over there a bit early because I love England and I love the uk. It's like, I have a lot of fun when I'm over there. Um, but we were there kind of like where sometimes horses can start to. They have that, like, crash, they call it, like, right at the four week. You know, there's a certain timing sometimes when they're over there. Um, but again, like, in the whole, like I said, the Internet came after me and people were very interesting because they. They would come. You should have pulled up. You know, you're a horrible person. And I'D be like, you're right, I should have pulled up. And they're like, oh, well, I didn't. You would respond. And it's like, well, I am a person. Like, sometimes people forget on the Internet that I'm actually a human being, and you're actually on my account commenting these things. But like, you, they weren't wrong. I needed to pull up, you know, two. Two minutes before. And here's the crazy part is the ground jury told me I should have pulled up before the last fence. Um, and I was like, no, you're in fact wrong. I should have pulled up two minutes before. Woodsman's close. Um, that's where I should have pulled up. But it was those factors that. That I learned a lot of really hard lessons in front of a lot of people. And I guess it had to be the dumb American, because that's also what I was accused of, too. But I, you know, ever since then, I'm more willing to pull up and go home and, you know, resort if I feel like it's a little bit different. But, you know, I had a bit of. Maybe a bit of that this past weekend where my mare was in heat in cross country. She was being a. A really. A big homing pigeon kind of going once. It wanted to go back to the barn to see her boyfriends. Cross country, which, I mean, fair. Who wouldn't want to go hang out with your boyfriends and stuff? [00:44:38] Speaker B: I don't know. [00:44:39] Speaker C: Cross country is pretty fun, but we were both a bit distracted, and we had a stop, which she's typically not one to have a stop, but I was kind of like, okay, well, is. You know, and I took a second because it's very easy to get rattled, but, like, take a second and be like, okay, what's happening? Are we okay? Does she feel okay? Is this just like, you know, all those things where, like, before I might have just maybe would have been mad at her, but I wasn't mad. I was just like, okay, well, let's just try and fix it. Because more than likely it's me. I wasn't in a good space either. And then after that, it kind of was like, okay, we're okay, and we went on, so. And she finished up well. And. Yeah, it's just that 2017 badminton, it's like it was yesterday. And people like to remind me every. Every a lot. Um, yeah, so. But, you know, I've worked really hard to try to. To fix it and, you know, not have anything like that happen again. And so anyhow, that was. [00:45:50] Speaker A: And for your horse, it's very much a physical thing that he had to get over. But for you, it would have been a very mental thing. How did you come back from that? How did you get your head back in the game to be a competitor again? Because I'm guessing, like you say, it was pretty crushing. I can see that other people's comments were crushing, but I'm guessing no one was as hard on you as you were on yourself. How did you get over that? [00:46:18] Speaker C: I felt like I couldn't trust myself, if that makes sense. Um, so I had to really rely on my vets of when we. He had a cardiologist and he actually made a miraculous recovery because after an. We did all the work and stuff like that and with the afib and he. He ended up having a murmur as well. But then afterwards we did more EKGs and we brought him back into work and I just, like, I would have him checked before every event and, you know, again, like, I knew what it. I had the comparison. And no one talks about AFIB either. It's very common thing. It can be, actually, because when horses are out on cross country and you see they're just not catching their breath, sometimes it's because of afib, but we don't know because you just don't know. It kind of feels like when you're driving a car and the gas has run out, but it's still going and kind of don't really have power steering or brakes. It's kind of like that kind of feeling. But when I went back to Kentucky that last time with him, which was. Would have been his fifth five star, I was so protective running him around. So, like, I. I was slow on the clock and I remember I came to the last. A couple of jumps and I kind of smooched to him and he sprinted on forward and I was like, okay, [00:48:10] Speaker A: we did it. Yeah. How did that feel crossing over? Oh, my gosh, you're gonna make me cry. Yeah. [00:48:16] Speaker C: How was it? Johnny makes me cry a lot. That feeling of relief and that. Like, I did my job. [00:48:27] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:48:28] Speaker C: You know, so. Ah, gosh, stop crying. It was such a long time ago. [00:48:33] Speaker A: No, don't stop crying. We love it just shows how much you love your horses. And because I feel like you take your responsibility of owning horses and asking them to do this job, and it's very like Simon's. You guys hold the responsibility that you take of asking these horses to do this very dangerous sport. And you just hold it. You take it very seriously. And I just. I take my hat off to you because I think it just shows how much you, you know, what you're asking of them and you love them, but you also know how much they enjoy it as well. [00:49:07] Speaker C: Yeah, for sure. I mean, when. And there's no horse that love cross country more than Johnny, my simply priceless horse. He was. [00:49:14] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:49:14] Speaker C: They said that horse would never tell me. No, you know, in the end he did. I had to. I had a injury happen on course with us, and he was dragging me to the next fence and I was trying to pull him up and I'm like, because, no, no, no, no. And even I jumped off and the jump judge was like, what happened? I was like, it doesn't feel right. I don't know. But I'm not letting him jump the next jump. But he. He was got. You know, there. There really are amazing creatures. Because you have to ask sometimes, like, why? And. But it's because they're. They're like people. You know, you have their. You have those people that love to go running for that adrenaline high and love to. I mean, Johnny would jump off the edge of the earth. B is the same way. Like, so brave, yet at the same breath, he, like, didn't like tractor equipment. So. But then you've got other horses that are, you know, absolutely not to ride a horse. This is. And this is the thing where people say that we force them to do it. If anyone's ever ridden a horse around cross country, that the horse didn't like it, it's not fun. Like, I don't want to do that. I don't want to ride a horse that doesn't enjoy it in some way, you know, like that. That looks for the fences and wants to go for it. [00:50:41] Speaker B: And, [00:50:43] Speaker C: you know, so I really. I enjoy riding happy horses that I don't. And when my horses aren't happy, it's. I'm trying to figure out how to make them happy and if that's a job change. And you know, I've. There's. Sometimes people get upset when I sell some of my horses and I'm like, well, it doesn't want to be an upper level horse. It's really happy at the lower levels. Like, you should be happy. Like, that's good horsemanship. [00:51:09] Speaker A: Like, like, oh, my God, you're gonna make Ben cry. This is Ben's life. [00:51:14] Speaker B: This is my heaven. [00:51:15] Speaker A: To tattoo this on his forehead. He would like you. Ben's gonna get emotional now as well. [00:51:22] Speaker C: I just get so true. Like, I don't. It's okay. And I still get nowadays, like people with Johnny, they're like, do you get on and ride him? And I'm like, no, the boy earned his retirement. He is 25. He is, he is happy as a horse. I don't need to ride him. [00:51:38] Speaker B: Oh, this right. So recently I just. On the q and A, I put out the other day asking the public questions for this. They. Someone was asking after my retired horses and I can tell they were like, I'll have one of your retired horses. And I'm like, the name, it's in the name. Retired. [00:51:57] Speaker C: Yeah, like, exactly. [00:51:58] Speaker B: Why, why would I. If it could still do the cool things it does, I would still be doing the cool things. Like, and it's, it's from both ways. Like that. Like you don't. Yeah. Once it's retired, they've earned their keep. I've got three boys. I can see them through the dining room window. They just cost me money these days, but they've earned, they've earned their stripes. And also music to my ears when you're saying like, have a horse that loves a job. Like, I have a rule with staff. If I'm like humans. If I ring staff for a job and I'm like, hey, got a three day show this place. You interested? And they're like, oh, I. Let me think about it. I'm like, cool. Nah. No, no, no, no, forget it. Forget a cold because if it's, if it's not, yes, absolutely would love that. I don't even want you with me. You're going to be a drain and the same with a horse. And it frustrates me with students when they're like, here is my imported 4 year old andrussian stallion that was bred for bullfighting and I would like it to happy hack on a loose rein. I'm like, cool. You have different destinies. [00:53:09] Speaker C: That horse is meant to have some reactions, you guys. [00:53:12] Speaker B: Yeah. And it's like, I can help you be a better horse trainer and I can teach your horse new life skills, but I can't give either of you a personality transplant. [00:53:23] Speaker C: So if, if or a reality check, I guess. [00:53:26] Speaker B: Yeah. And it's. And that's a big thing. I've had the same. I had my best horse, Malik. I bought his full brother because I was like, yeah, that's like, I want that. [00:53:37] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:53:38] Speaker B: Fully trained. The brother took it to its first event and it hated it. Hated it. [00:53:44] Speaker C: Genetic. [00:53:45] Speaker B: There is a lovely lady somewhere in the country that has a spectacularly well trained Spanish horse that she hacks around the village two to three times a week because like you say, that was his destiny. That's what he wanted to do. I don't want to go out and do anything with a horse that's not with me. [00:54:05] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:54:06] Speaker B: And, and that's so important. And it's, it's the more we can spread that message tonight. Like maybe if you, and if you're trying to jump a bigger track and your horses really can't do it or is not like that's the hardest thing. I think it's easy when a horse physically can't do something, people see that. But when they're like, but it's great grandfather won Aachen and you're like, that doesn't matter. [00:54:27] Speaker C: Like, you know, or, or people would be like, oh well, you just don't care. You're just throwing it away now. And it's like, no, no, no. I mean, I have 15 personal horses, so. But I can't keep them all. I mean, you're more than welcome to come on as an owner, own it for me, by all means. You know, I've had a couple of horses. Like I had one horse that I got to the five star level and it was, it was not his MO And I sold him and he is happy as a lark going around beginner, novice with his adult, you know, novice in training. Like he's totally within his range. You know, I had my last horse I tried. It was actually the horse I won the three star championship long on at Maryland and moved up to four star and it just couldn't make it work. I had a couple of falls and he, I ended up selling him back as a show jumper to a lovely adult amateur. And he is the best unicorn and happy as can be in sound and like this is what people don't understand is like keeping horses sound and happy and you know, still, I mean, I could keep trying and break it if that's what you would like me to do. But I prefer to not break my horses. And you know, I'd like them to have go on to long standing careers, whether that's with me or someone else, you know, so be it. But the best thing is when we re home our horses and you see that person riding your horse around and they got big old smile on their face and it's their best unicorn horse ever. And that's, that's even better. [00:56:13] Speaker A: But how cool is it though when you find those horses and I know both of you will have experienced this because I know Elisa, you like Ben, have had to Ride a lot of horses that maybe other people didn't enjoy what their talents were of standing on their back legs and rodeo, signing someone into a wall. But when you find those horses that aren't meant to be talented, but they wear their heart so firmly on their hooves so that they will absolutely try and rise above maybe what their talent should be, that for me and when I, when I interview show jumpers or eventors or dressage horses or Becky Moody with Jaeger Bomb, she was like, he was not talented, he was not meant to go this far. But he just kept improving. And he's so much heart, he tries so hard. Those are the, those stories as well that I love when, when you, when you find a horse who's just got the biggest heart. [00:57:00] Speaker C: Yeah. You know, there's something about the horses that the work hards, you know, the ones that are just maybe not the best built or they don't have the, the blue blood, but they are willing to try almost too hard sometimes for sure. And then you get the ones that are like so well bred, like you're the brother and there it's like perfect and it's just like no want to. [00:57:34] Speaker B: When people bring up the breeding thing, I always talk about me and my sister. I'm like, I ran away with the circus and became a weird stunt, weird liberty person. My sister's a primary school teacher like we are. We have chalk and cheese. Same parents, same upbringing. [00:57:49] Speaker C: You like to teach, you do teach. [00:57:51] Speaker B: So there is a. I do teach, I do teach. That is very true. That is very true. [00:57:56] Speaker A: And I also think a primary school teacher needs the tolerance of a horse trainer. That's me. [00:58:00] Speaker C: I've got five kids. [00:58:01] Speaker B: Far more tolerance than me, definitely. I would also say Jenny from my end though. The reason I love those horses that people don't think are going to be good is they're just so much cheaper, they're so much better. Like you sell it as a failure and then it do well for me. Oh, absolutely. Every time. [00:58:20] Speaker C: I always love seeing like trying to find the diamonds in the rough or some, somebody, you know, that they don't believe in. They just. Yeah, the horses might need a different [00:58:31] Speaker B: program, you know, and it's so interesting. I couldn't agree with you more with. I'd rather have good software and bad hardware. Give me a perfect. A horse with a great brain with not such great confirmation. Because like one of my liberty horses, I love him. He has the best confirmation on a Spanish horse I've ever seen. He actually moves straight. People always ask Me if he's Hungarian because he moves so beautifully. Can you toss to anything with that horse under saddle? No. Like four rides. It'll be beautiful. The fifth ride, all the toys come out the pram. It just goes. I'm gonna burst into white foam and have a panic attack at Liberty or standing on him, happy as a lamb, loves it. And I just sit there looking at him in the field. [00:59:17] Speaker A: It sounds like me. Have you checked his estrogen levels recently? [00:59:21] Speaker C: And it's just like he has you. Then at least he has a job. [00:59:25] Speaker B: Well, I call my Liberty team my box of broken toys because all of them. I've got 10 horses in the Liberty team and collectively their entire cost was less than 10,000. Because it's like. And that's because two or three of them are actually nice ones that I paid money for. And the rest of them are like this bolted. We're gonna shoot it. I'm like, don't wait, I'm coming. Let me try. Let me fail first. But it's what's great. And like finding horses and having the life. And I just say, listening to your story, I have to say this. I've thought it the entire time. I know that like what happened at badminton was like probably one of the most traumatic and yet growth producing moments of your life. But you've gotta be pretty cool to mess up at badminton. To have the chance to even have the privilege to, to have a bad experience in the five star at Badmington shows that you're a horseman, a horsewoman. That's, you know, head and shoulders above the bloody rest of us. I'm a little bit badminton starstruck because I went there for the first time this last year, this year, this year, this year, and was like, oh, badminton's amazing. [01:00:39] Speaker C: Yeah, for sure. [01:00:41] Speaker B: Yeah. And people say what I do is stunts and dangerous. That's a joke compared to that. Nah. [01:00:49] Speaker C: Yeah, you have to have the right horse for badminton, that's for sure. Yeah. [01:00:53] Speaker A: 100%. With a lot of. At the moment, there's so much chat about bridal lists and obviously you do quite a lot from what I've seen on your socials. And there's obviously now in the uk, they've had their first UK bridalist competition. And I know, it's so cool. And then we did ask the CEO of British Eventing, who came on the podcast, could she ever see any eventing competitions, bridal list? And she said absolutely not. While she's CEO and a lot of people can sometimes take it out of Context as well. They might think you ride all your horses bridle less. And I've seen you cross country school bridal, by the way. It's just so cool. What is your take on it? Do you do it with all of them? Do you try to get to that level with all of them that you couldn't take the bridle off because people watching you might think, yeah, that's easy. But she can do it. Yeah. [01:01:44] Speaker C: I mean, you can do it for a period of time, you know, whether that's two seconds or 20 minutes, it's all I do try. It is my gauge, I guess you could say. So. It took me a long time actually to get my current mare, my four star mare to that point where I could trust her. Yeah, to listen to my seat. But I do use it as a. Okay, where are my holes in my horses? Because if your horse is trained well enough, it should eventually be able to go bridalist. Right. Because that I always try to train with the bridle at as hands are last. So that makes sense. So even in back when I was younger, you know, I always thought, well, if I teach my horse to go bridalist, if my rein breaks, I will be okay. So that was kind of like. Or if I lose my reins, I can kind of steer my horse still to the jump. Like that was kind of my thought process for it. But I mean I do eventually go to like the neck ropes and, and try to really play with that because again, tells a lot and it can tell me where I have holes in certain respects. Like I have my new horses that I've had, I got in last November. I have not done neck ropes on them yet. Like I'm still, we're still establishing our, our training together. But I definitely think that I try to do my training a little bit of this, a little bit of that. Like I'll go back if I feel stuck. I might go back to some of the western stuff that I've seen and use that. Or I might like, oh, I'm stuck. I'm hitting a wall. This isn't working. Let me just get off and do some groundwork and try to get it out that way, you know. So again, having that toolbox I think is really helpful. Also though, I think the neck rope in cross country is a bit tricky when our horses get that adrenaline in there. [01:04:07] Speaker A: Yeah, that's, that's the thing, isn't it? [01:04:09] Speaker C: Speed? Like I can school all day long. You know, schooling is quite different actually because it's kind of like off on, off on. But like the thought of going completely bridalist on Beatrice cross country is in fact terrifying to me. Again, like in a couple of moments I could probably have it. But I. And again, the more it should be something we strive for. Right. Because when our horses are high in adrenaline, if we can keep that communication up, that's amazing. Like, if I can do it, then that would be awesome. But safety wise, you know, I could see why they wouldn't. You know, hackamores are still kind of. But I've had a hackamore break, so there's that too. It's like, oh, now I have a neck rope. [01:05:08] Speaker A: Yeah. I just think it's that people don't really realize, especially before cross country. And I, And I've seen it as well. Like I've got so many friends in the show jumping world and their horses just become different fire breathing dragons the moment they go into that competition arena. Horses do know and they know when to fight and they know when the clock's ticking. And some of them just like, you're like, yeah, I could do this at home, but in that arena, yeah, I. That would kill me. [01:05:35] Speaker C: Well, yeah. And I mean they're, they're athletes in their own respect because then you could, you could kind of go, well, your horse is stressed. And it's like, well, it's a. I mean, do we all make good faces when we're, you know, in the moment? You know what I mean? Like, we want our horses to be happy, healthy and strong and fit. And sometimes. But sometimes I think some of that stuff is taken out of context. But they're like, my mare, she knows when I my helmet cam because it goes beep, beep, beep, beep. And that's at 30 seconds. So I'll do that. And I'm like, oh, she's like, she knows it's coming. And then my 10 minute or my 10 second on my watch, and it goes beep. And it's like, oh, she knows. So trying to. The things inevitably become cues. [01:06:25] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:06:26] Speaker C: You know, and what can happen in the show jump ring as well, because I had another mayor. But they hear that the buzzer go and they're like, oh, time to go. So trying to get them to kind of wait a little bit and take a breath because it's kind of an oxymoron. We want our horses to be relaxed but yet have adrenaline. Like, that's really hard. [01:06:48] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:06:49] Speaker C: Think about that. Like, be relaxed while you're doing cross country. Like, what I'm not Relaxed. Is my horse going to be relaxed? So it, it's definitely trying to. To fight a couple of those oxymorons, I think. But. But back to the neck rope and riding Bridalists. Anything that I can do to test myself and see where I am, that's what I try to do. Because again, I'm trying to be better. And the more I can get my horse on communication, then the better we're gonna off. We're gonna be. [01:07:29] Speaker A: Oh, I just love talking to you. You're so. You're like the female Ben mixed with Simon. You're like both of them rolled into one. It's just the best. All right, we have had you for over an hour already. I've got some quick fire questions for you. And that's what I was gonna say. Ben, what else have you got to ask? [01:07:49] Speaker B: I just wanted to add like a little bit just before we move on, like on this same idea of. And this is one of these things where I think we've lost our way with horsemanship in some ways because in some ways we pat ourselves on the back now we're doing bridal less competition and stuff. So haven't we evolved and that sort of thing? And we're trying to be kinder to horses. And I'm not poohing that. I'm like, that's amazing. But there are other ways in which we've got lost. So like even you don't have to go as far as bridal list. But how good are you without brain contact and stuff like that? And so I we do classical dressage performances at Bolsover Castle. And the man who used to live there, who in the 1600s, William Cavendish. Him and his friends when they were trying to prove who had the better trained horses would ride classical dressage together. But they would each be given a certain length of silk thread to tie their reins to the bit. [01:08:41] Speaker C: That's amazing. [01:08:42] Speaker B: And the last person to break their reins off the bit won. And so that's a fun game. [01:08:48] Speaker A: Yeah, that is a good game. [01:08:50] Speaker B: And so it's like things like that used to be what the best did to prove and like the reason the rider who does the solo in Vienna does it one handed is to prove that you're not using that you're not using the hand. And then equally up to like when you see people do classical dressage in the long reigns shows the communication because you're getting tempis and pirouettes with no rider on and no. And it's like perfect. Just a few examples I wanted to sort of throw out to the audience they can Google and look up of that. What you're saying as a rider, constantly challenge yourself not just by going from B90 to 100, but by being like, could I ride that better? Could I act better in that moment? And that's the like. Before we go into the quick fire questions, just the biggest thing I've taken away from love speaking to you today. [01:09:46] Speaker C: It's been so much fun. [01:09:48] Speaker B: This constant, constant burden of personal responsibility for growth and accountability. And that's something that it doesn't matter if you're in Pony Club or getting ready for Burley this week. [01:10:04] Speaker C: That's right. [01:10:05] Speaker B: It's the same. [01:10:07] Speaker C: Absolutely. [01:10:08] Speaker B: That same mindset. Yeah. So, Jake. Yeah. Hit us with the Quick Fire. I'm ready. [01:10:13] Speaker A: I was just thinking about. I don't know why, when you were talking about that, Ben. I was thinking about when I was a kid and I learned to ride at a stables called Bovington. And we had this, like, track, and it was like five, like Cavallettis in a row, like cross country built into the ground. It was like a pole, two strides, pole, and you couldn't deviate off the track. And our instructor used to make us gallop down it these like, six, seven, eight jumps, holding glasses of water in either hand, out like an aeroplane on our ponies. And the person who had the most water left at the end was the winner. But. And that was like when we were teenagers. And I just think stuff like that, which you're not really meant to do with kids anymore, but do you know what I mean? All this stuff is just teaching kids and balance and just fun. But testing your. Like, can you canter a circle and not spill water? [01:11:02] Speaker C: Like, you know, it's a fun game I'll have some of my students do, which I like to do as well, because jumping wise, it's very easy to get stuck in your eyesight and what you see, and then it automatically goes to your hand. So I'll put them on the lunge line. If I'm on my horses, the ones I can trust enough, I will. But if you close your eyes while you're cantering to a jump, it's really cool because you can actually feel when the horse is going to jump. And so I think it's a really important tool because feel is when we get stuck at, oh, I didn't see the right distance or this was off it. It. It can go. Goes back to what Lucinda says, you know, it's your feel and not necessarily Staring or riding a line for the distance. Right. So. And I just think of that, like when I was a kid, just I would close my eyes. Cause it's fun. It felt like a roller coaster. Like, it's the best feeling. It's so much fun. [01:12:03] Speaker A: Yeah. I had an instructor in Ireland do that to me. It is. And it makes you so. Like, it is so cool. Oh, I love Lucinda. I'm guessing you're talking about Lucinda Green. Yes, I love her. Can we just have a moment for Lucinda? Because she's awesome. She is the best. She's many a lesson with her. Making me jump. Ditches on the buckle. Thanks, Lucinda. Yeah. Right, quick fire questions. You're only our second ever guest to do these. These are a new feature. So, first of all, what horse has taught you the most? [01:12:35] Speaker C: Oh, gosh. Fledge and Johnny. I get two. [01:12:40] Speaker A: You can have two. You can have two. Which horse would you clone if you could? [01:12:46] Speaker C: Johnny. [01:12:48] Speaker A: Really? Because he just had the biggest heart. [01:12:50] Speaker C: Simply priceless. 100%. [01:12:53] Speaker A: Why did you name him simply Priceless? [01:12:56] Speaker C: No, he came with that. [01:12:57] Speaker A: What a cool name, by the way. [01:13:00] Speaker C: Priceless for sure. [01:13:03] Speaker A: That is a very cool name. Which horse in the world would not yours. Which horse in the world would you steal if no one could ever find out? [01:13:12] Speaker C: Ooh, Sam. [01:13:16] Speaker A: Oh, as in Michael Young's horse, Sam. Yeah. That's a good shout. Although he was meant to be a bit of a bugger to ride, apparently he wasn't that easy. [01:13:25] Speaker C: I have. I have a type. [01:13:28] Speaker A: Yeah. It's like me with my boyfriend. [01:13:32] Speaker C: I say, I want the. Why can't I have the good ones that are just. I want an amateur horse. I get the difficult ones. And then, like, the ones I sell, I'm like, no, I'm selling the good one. You don't want the ones I'm keeping. Yeah, right, Ben. [01:13:52] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:13:53] Speaker B: I had just done that. When we did this demo at the weekend, I brought one of my youngsters out and it was. Went bolt upright and did nearly a full circle, like a full pirouette on its hind legs in the arena. When I was trying to get it to calm down and instantly down the mic, I was like, oh, yes. And the audience are like, what? And I'm like, oh, no, no. I bought this colt because its dad's a really good rearing horse. So I'm actually where everybody else would see this and be like, this is terrible. I'm like, oh, he's got the potential for the hind leg work. [01:14:23] Speaker C: Yes, that's. [01:14:26] Speaker A: Well. [01:14:26] Speaker C: And probably if I was to Say also Charisma. Charisma, yes. Favorite growing up, Mark Todd. I actually have a horse named. My home bred is named Toddy for Mark Todd. [01:14:43] Speaker A: Oh, another legend. I love him. You have to. Ben probably won't know who Charisma is, but basically he was a pony who won golds at Olympics, everything and just didn't look like a horse that should be able to do what he did and just was. I mean, Mark's so tall as well. His feet nearly came down to the floor on him. But. Yeah. But again, I feel like that was a partnership, wasn't it? Like, I don't know if everyone could have got that out of that horse. I never saw him in the person. Obviously. I've met Mark many times, but I feel like that was. Yeah, that was some partnership. That's a good choice. No one's brought up Charisma before. I like that. [01:15:19] Speaker C: He is amazing. [01:15:23] Speaker A: So who's the rider you most enjoy watching? [01:15:28] Speaker C: Growing up or just in general? [01:15:31] Speaker A: Yeah. So there's two parts to this. Who's the rider you most enjoy watching? And is that different from if you could choose anyone to ride your horse, who would it be? If you couldn't ride them yourself? [01:15:42] Speaker C: Okay. That's a lot to unpack, I'd say. Growing up, I love watching Lucinda and Mary Keene. They were some tough gals out there. And if I had. I mean, Mickey Young. I can't go wrong if Mickey's riding it. Sure. Fix it, please. Make you better, Mickey. That's what I would say. [01:16:13] Speaker A: He just. When you see him ride up to some of these big den, like the big ditch in front of the log thing in Kentucky, and he just breathes over it. Do you know what I mean? Like, there's no touching of the rein. There's. The canter stays the same. And he, like, whispers to his horses. It's quite extraordinary. [01:16:31] Speaker C: Does. He is an amazing freak of nature, but he is still human. So, like, when he fell in the water at Fisher Ricana on Fisher Ikana, I was like, it does happen. Okay. [01:16:43] Speaker A: He's not a cyborg. [01:16:45] Speaker C: Yeah, yeah. Or when he's had a rail. [01:16:49] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:16:49] Speaker C: You know, it's. It helps me feel like I'm okay. Well. But no. Yeah, he's a. He's a. He's an alien for sure. [01:17:00] Speaker A: He is. He is. Yeah. I always called him the cyborg because he's just extraordinary. Okay, so this is the final one. What's the difference between a great rider and a great horseman? [01:17:09] Speaker C: Well, they should be the same. A Great rider can see a good distance. A great horseman, it doesn't matter. [01:17:16] Speaker A: Oh, I like that. [01:17:18] Speaker C: Yeah. How about that? [01:17:19] Speaker B: That's very good. There's no wrong answer to that, by the way. [01:17:21] Speaker C: No. It's really hard to think about it, but, like, when you think about, like, being a great rider, part of that is, like, if you can, like, not miss, that'd be amazing. But like being a great horseman, it that seeing the distance, that doesn't matter. It's feel in. In communication. So, [01:17:42] Speaker A: Ben, tell. Tell Elisa your answer. [01:17:44] Speaker B: I've got to get this right now. I've got to remember, I have to [01:17:47] Speaker A: say it for you. I've just clipped it, put it on social. [01:17:49] Speaker B: A great. All right, I'll see if I can remember it. A great rider can get a trained horse to do something. A great horseman can train the horse to do it. [01:17:58] Speaker C: Yeah, touche. That is. That is good. [01:18:01] Speaker A: It's good. I thought you'd like that. I just. Now having spoken to you, I thought, like, she'll like that one. [01:18:05] Speaker C: Yeah. [01:18:06] Speaker A: Right. [01:18:06] Speaker C: Amazing. [01:18:08] Speaker A: And finally, to finish. What has annoyed you this week? In a world of Zen and we're all being lovely. Get it off your chest. What has annoyed you this week? [01:18:19] Speaker C: Oh, I got a comment on my YouTube of my show Jump Round and it said, a trust funder, just trust funding. And I said, if you would like to become an owner, that'd be amazing. I don't have anything against funding wonders. [01:18:36] Speaker B: Do you know, this goes into something that I've thought I've talked about a bit this week with some mates. Don't you dare. Right, by all means, have a dream, but don't you blood. Don't you dare achieve it. Like, it's okay to dream, to ride at five star, but the moment you do it, you're not one of us. You're not one of us. You're one of them. [01:18:58] Speaker C: Yeah, I can't have nice things anymore. [01:19:00] Speaker B: Yeah. And I think it goes across the whole horse world. Like, people will say to me, oh, yeah, but it's okay for you. And I'm like, I did a performance like 15 years ago when I was with Malik or whatever. Probably not Malik, he wasn't born, but, like, where it was going so badly that they. All the crowd left and they started packing around it, packing down the main arena barriers while I was still going. Cause it was going so badly, like. But people don't see that. [01:19:31] Speaker A: They just see that when that happens, just take your top off. That'll get the crowd back. [01:19:35] Speaker B: Not anymore. I'm all dad and dad boss these days. But it's that same thing. It's that like, because you've done so much, people are like, oh, you're obviously a millionaire and you've got everything. [01:19:46] Speaker C: Yeah. [01:19:47] Speaker B: And you're like, and even if I am, I've got here, Right? [01:19:51] Speaker C: Well, yeah, that was the thing. I was like, well, I mean, if that was a trust funder, like, good on the parents for helping the kid out or what have you. But I mean, no, I, I have worked for every ounce of, like I said, I had to have my horse in the basement. And it. We had, we were on some government programs when I was younger, if you guys need to know. But yeah, I've worked really hard to have good owners. And I wake up every. I don't remember the last time I had a day off. And you know, it's just sometimes, I mean, horses take a lot of money. There's no way around that. Like, and there are ways to, I guess, get around it. Like, I was a working student or, you know, I rode horses for free and I did the things that I could do to help me move forward and. But like, it is, there are certain things that it's a business and you have to work hard to be able to play the game. Yeah. And so that, that, that, that made me giggle and grind to my gears a little bit. Because you dwell on comments, sometimes they can get under your skin, but like, at the same breath you have to realize you have control. So that delete button is pretty powerful. But oftentimes I find. And if someone's like blatantly being a troll, like, yeah, like, there's some people you just can't, you can't reason with. And those that they don't deserve to be there, then fine. Not if you would like to have an open conversation with me. I'm more than willing to talk about my mistakes and all the things that I've done wrong. I don't have a problem doing that. And oftentimes. And then they come around. So I think it's very easy again, like I said before with the Internet for people to not realize that you're in fact a human being and they forget that we are there. And so when I then communicate with them, then they're like, oh, I didn't think you were going to respond back. And it's like, well, what else did you think? You know, you're talking about me. You know, I appreciate all the support. And look, I know I'm not perfect and not everyone's gonna like me, and you don't have to like me, and that's okay. I like my horses. So the end of the day, I spend a lot of time with my horses, so, you know, it's. It's hard. But, like, for instance, when I was at the championships this past weekend, and it was being. It was feeling like hard work being there and a rough go, there was this really nice guy that was from Japan, and he was like, you're famous in Japan. And I'm like, what? And he's like, I love you so much. You're famous in Japan. And I was like, you know, I'm glad if I can help you guys in. That makes your day. Let's take a picture. You just made mine. Like, you know, it's. It's not about all, but, like, it just. It made me smile that I could help someone else, you know? So it's. It's sometimes hard to realize, like, how far the Internet goes, you know, how big a reach it is. Because sometimes I feel like. And I don't know if you feel this way, Ben, but I'm like, okay, I. I do the horse part, but, like, why am I. Does this really matter? [01:23:39] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:23:39] Speaker C: Like, does anyone really care, like, what I'm doing? Um, so sometimes that kind of pops up, but for the most part, you know, I. I enjoy trying to. To help people and experience it through the. Through the journeys and the stories of the horses, because, you know, they're the. They're the main characters. [01:24:02] Speaker B: I love that. [01:24:04] Speaker A: Oh, I don't want to stop talking to you, but I know you've got [01:24:07] Speaker C: a chiropractor appointment, although you cry a lot. Dang it. [01:24:11] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:24:11] Speaker C: I was like, I don't cry this time. I know. She wants me to cry. [01:24:15] Speaker B: I know. [01:24:16] Speaker A: Got it. Yeah, we'll clip that out. Just on its own. I got death threats. That'll be it. The title for the podcast. Oh, yeah. [01:24:22] Speaker C: Yeah. See, that's the spin. [01:24:24] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:24:24] Speaker B: I get death threats. You've never told me that. I'm good for getting death threats. [01:24:30] Speaker A: Ben, before we go, do you have a. What's annoyed you this week? [01:24:33] Speaker B: My forklift broke. My forklift is broken. Forklift broke while I was away. [01:24:38] Speaker A: Enough. What's annoyed you, by the way? [01:24:40] Speaker B: Oh, and so I have. I had eight stables to muck out today and the horses in the field to look after, and that should have taken me, like, a couple of hours in the morning and then had a chill day because I had such a chaotic day yesterday, but instead, I have had to do all sorts of ridiculous jobs. And what's really annoyed me about it is this matters so little to nobody else in the world. I filled the back of my pickup with sand for a job and have left it filthy and I finally washed it out and now I'm having to use my pickup to move hay around the farm and I spent ages finally cleaning it. So my wife George, has been in absolute delight every time she's seen me with my pickup full of hay, going around being like, oh, but you're really glad you spent all that time power washing the back of the pickup out. I'm like, yeah, thanks. So that is. But on a. On a. What's not annoyed me this week? My best friend, James Parrott, Mr. P. He works for us on the farm and he's also a motorhead, and he has spent today underneath the forklift and has found out how to fix it. So we are. [01:25:50] Speaker A: Yes, go, James. [01:25:52] Speaker B: We are all in the world. In all fairness, though, he is the one that broke it, so swings it to know sweet and roundabouts. But that is. Yeah, that's what has annoyed me. [01:26:00] Speaker C: There's, like, those days where it feels like everything is broken and nothing is working. [01:26:05] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. [01:26:07] Speaker A: But you clearly wear your heart on your sleeve as much as your horses do, and I just love it. Thank you so much. I genuinely have just enjoyed this so much. [01:26:17] Speaker C: It's been so much fun and I. I've loved. I've followed you guys and I followed Ben forever because I'm always like, he's so cool. I want to do liberty like that, but I. My. I pretend every now and then. [01:26:31] Speaker B: Oh, bless you. [01:26:31] Speaker A: Not at all. Well, you need to get your backside to England and hopefully we'll be back at Badminton. We were hosted a bit by the lake by Badminton, so I've got more [01:26:41] Speaker C: friends there, so I can come and Ben can give me some lessons. [01:26:45] Speaker B: Yeah, Come play ponies. Come play liberty horses at my house. [01:26:48] Speaker A: Yeah. And eventually we want to do a bit of a North American thing or something, won't we, Ben? It will happen. [01:26:54] Speaker C: That would be amazing. [01:26:55] Speaker B: Absolutely. Drive around America in a big car and drink bourbon. Not at the same time. [01:27:01] Speaker C: Don't you guys like fried chicken? Like, Chick Fil a is a big hit over here for the Ukers. [01:27:06] Speaker B: Oh, I. Yeah, I know where I'm meant to be wrapping this up, but. Oh, I had Chick Fil a for the first time in Kentucky, which is also where I fell in love with bourbon. Like this is. [01:27:16] Speaker C: Yeah, it's not a bad place. [01:27:19] Speaker B: My experience of the States is purely stereotypical, and I'm blaming all of my friends from the States. [01:27:25] Speaker C: That's okay. Stereotypes are fun. It's totally okay. [01:27:31] Speaker A: I feel like this could be a whole other podcast. Right. Thank you so much for coming on. This has just been so wonderful. You made me cry. I haven't cried on one of these for a while, so well done. I'm sorry we didn't get Simon on, but like I say, he's heading to quite a big one. You've been there yourself. [01:27:48] Speaker C: It's just a little pony show. He'll be fine. [01:27:50] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. Burley, I think it's called. Yeah. [01:27:53] Speaker C: Yeah. [01:27:54] Speaker B: Really? Oh, he's not mentioned that? Not once? [01:27:56] Speaker A: No, no. Last year, I think he went double clear. I think he didn't really bring it up, so. Yeah. But thank you so much. I've loved every second. Benji, as always. It's wonderful to see. See you, but at least, Wallace, all that is left to say is Shut up and ride. [01:28:13] Speaker C: Yeah, shut up. Let's. Let's shut up and ride. We gotta.