Egypt Equine Aid: ‘The Reality For Working Animals in Egypt

[00:00:00] Speaker A: Before we get into today's episode, just a quick warning. In our conversation with Egypt equine Aid, we do talk very honestly about some of the injuries and situations they see horses facing and at times some of the descriptions are quite graphic. So if you're listening with small children or you're particularly sensitive to the descriptions of animals injuries, just be aware there are some difficult moments in this episode. It's an incredibly important conversation and one we really want to have, but we just want. Wanted to give you a heads up before we get started. Right, let's get into it. Welcome to the Shut Up Ride podcast, sponsored and brought to you by the wonderful Charles Owen. If I'm sounding a little jaded, it's because this is very early in the morning here because to get on the right time zone, I. I have got up at stupid o' clock to make sure I can get our guest on today because it is definitely going to be worth it. Something that holds there is very dear to my heart, but I'm not going to introduce them just yet. I'm going to introduce a very handsome, smiley, cheeky, almost Benjamin. How are you? [00:01:19] Speaker B: I'm very good, thank you. We're hitting all the time zones today. We've got you early morning, we've got our guest sort of evening and me and lunchtime. I think I've won when it comes. [00:01:29] Speaker A: I think you have, yeah. I think this is why you can look so happy and smug right now. [00:01:34] Speaker B: Well, I'm also. I'm very happy because I was at a charity event last night for here for horses and we were doing our talking thing and it was with an American cowboy called Daniel Dauphin and William Micklem, the maker of the bridal. [00:01:49] Speaker A: Oh, I've met William. Isn't he fabulous? [00:01:52] Speaker B: He's just. I just could have listened to him talk all day and every so often he would just stand up. I mean, like, I thought I was quite a good showman. We'd get halfway through a topic on stage and he'd stand up and go off in a monologue and recite poetry from memory and stuff. I was like, this is the coolest guy. [00:02:08] Speaker A: He is so lovely. He is the nicest guy. He gave me a Mickle and bridal once, but never taught me how to actually put the bloody thing on. So I don't think I ever used it to its full effect. But, right, he's someone we should get on. Actually. He'd love to come on the podcast, he'd be amazing. But right when I came up with this crazy idea of a podcast. One of the things we wanted to do is, oh, Ben's so much more eloquent than me, but champion the horse. And that isn't just when it comes to top sports or liberty. It's also for any equine, any animal. Just for the love of the horse is the reason we do this. And the lady we have on our podcast has sacrificed, I would say, pretty much everything. We're going to get down to it with her for the love of the horse and, well, not just horses, donkeys, camels. She is, I, I think probably safe and saying put her life on pause for horses. I am so excited we get to have this person on because it's something I really want to do with the podcast is highlight amazing work that goes on in the equestrian world that really puts what Ben and I to, well, makes us. Yeah, it pales us into insignificance, the kind of work this lady does from Egypt. Equine aid. The wonderful Jill Barton. Thank you so much for coming on because you are A, a busy bit busy lady, B, on a completely different time zone. You're in Perth at the moment and just to take the time out of your diary to come and talk to us is so wonderful. Welcome to the Shut up and Ride podcast, Jill. [00:03:52] Speaker C: Hi, Jen. And thanks for the lovely intro. You're definitely right. I have put my life on hold and I sometimes, sometimes look back and go, wow. Well, that was crazy. You know, I think about this, you know, what's it called, Changing doors, and just think, if I had have gone that way, not gone on that holiday to Egypt, I probably would not be there now. [00:04:13] Speaker B: So that's how it all started. A random holiday sparked all of this. [00:04:17] Speaker C: Exactly. Yeah. I was planning to retire or semi retired with my then husband. We, we do this thing in Australia called the. The Gray Nomads where we have a car or van or something and we travel around Australia and pick up odd work here and there and things like that. And I said, you know what, let's just do a trip of Europe before we start. And while we're there, let's just pop into Egypt and have a look at the pyramids and. And that's how it started. And no turning back. Yeah. [00:04:45] Speaker A: Wow. [00:04:46] Speaker B: By the time if I'm ever lucky enough to do something that approximates retiring, I hope I've got my shit together enough to be like, let's just go to Europe first and pop into Egypt and like, not have a pushback on that. Have been like, yeah, let's just go for that. [00:05:01] Speaker A: Yes. But then look what's happened. There's a whole charity based around it. I'm not sure Jill's the kind of person who actually could retire even if you wanted to. So, first of all, Egypt Equine Aid, because I want to delve into more about how it started. But can you just summarize, Jill, what. What the charity is? Because, I mean, it. I think it pretty much does say it in the title, but it actually. Having spoke to your wonderful PR lady, Kate, who we spoke for two hours, by the way, this is how amazing you guys are. Two hours. I spoke about your charity. Can you first of all, just explain what it is and what you guys do do? Because I thought it was just kind of rescue animals. Tick done. But no, not. Not even in the slightest. [00:05:47] Speaker C: Yeah, that rescuing animals is one of the kind of sidelines that we do. But our major thing is that we have a free veterinary hospital for the working animals. So we see, you know, like, yearly, we probably see about 3,000 patients and. [00:06:05] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:06:05] Speaker C: And we have about, you know, 15 of them become inpatients, and the rest are outpatients that are treated and then go home. And we do have a small rescue herd. I think we've probably got around 50 now. Horses and donkeys, we don't rescue them so much ourselves unless they're surrendered. We certainly don't buy animals. We have a no buy policy. So it's usually, you know, other people that have rescued them and then surrendered them to us or rescued them and then had nowhere to send them. Rescue. There's been some really amazing stories of rescue, actually. Just people who visited Egypt and ended up rescuing a horse they found in the street or whatever. And quite often we are left with horses that other people thought they would start a rescue and then found it wasn't for them, so then they've, you know, left. You know, the first horses we rescued was an Australian lady who came back to Australia and left the horses and animals and donkeys behind. So that was the very first rescues we had about 10 from the day we arrived. [00:07:09] Speaker A: Oh, my God. [00:07:10] Speaker C: So that's just getting back to what we do then. So it's. It's a free hospital for the working horses and donkeys. But we also realized very early on that there were not a lot of trained equine vets. You know, they don't focus on that in their veterinary schools, that focus more on working animals. I'm sorry, on farm animals. So we decided we would be a training hospital. And that's. That's what we've done. So we've trained. Actually, I'd have to. We don't actually keep accurate figures on that, but it would probably be somewhere around three to 400 veterinary trainees that we've. We've given training, whether it was just 10 weeks or it was six months or a year or whatever. And then a lot of people. [00:07:49] Speaker A: You haven't been going that long. Is that since 2013. So that's a lot of people. [00:07:56] Speaker C: 2014 we actually started. 2013 was when I first visited Egypt. So, yeah, now a lot of those vets are out working. Some of them are working for other, you know, like, clinics, some are working for other rescuers, some have gone overseas to work. Yeah. And. And then, you know, a lot of them, we offer jobs, so. So all the vets that work for us were trained by us as well. Because, you know, a lot of people in Egypt are trained in different methods to what we would like to see. You know, like, we like to say that we use the. The best, you know, type of methods, the highest standards and things like that. So, you know, any vet that comes to work for us must have been trained by us in the first place or willing to undergo training. [00:08:44] Speaker A: Wow. And how. So how do you go from. This just blows my mind because it's just so easy to say, oh, I went on holiday and I decide, like, what was the moment on the holiday? What was it just the general seeing what was going on? Was there a particular kind of horse that you met that you went, you know what? I have to save you? And everyone has these ideals and this idea that I'd love to rescue animals and I'd love to do it, but to actually do it. And I'm guessing now you spend most of your time in Egypt, like, especially when you were starting it, to actually upend your life like that. What. What was the moment that you went, you know what? This is something I need to do because I'm not. I'm not a religious person, but Ben, you would almost. Ben is a. Is a religious person. But you'd almost think, like, it must have been like a calling or something. [00:09:35] Speaker C: Yeah, it's kind of a combination of things. Like, when I was there, I just. I had, you know, I'm not a spiritual person, but what most people would say, a calling. I really felt it when it was explained to me that Australia had left behind 10,000 horses after the war and that these horses were descended from those horses. And when that was told to me, I just had this, like, boom, moment. In my heart, in my chest. And that's not me at all, you know, and so that was one of them that really. That got to me. And the other thing was just that we were helping a young Australian girl when we went on our visit, and then she left. And then we had. Her supporters were like, almost begging us to come back to save the horses that she had rescued. And we had already talked about me coming back to help her because she was very young, and it didn't seem as though she, you know, like she'd bitten off more than she could handle. And she didn't know how to deal with, like, the accounting side of things. She didn't know how to deal with the grooms to get them, you know, following her instructions kind of thing. So we had already talked about me coming back, but after we kind of had this boom moment, and then she left permanently. And then my. He's my now ex husband. He actually said at the time, when you look around here, it makes you want to do more. And I just said, yeah, let's. And that's kind of, you know, was a common culmination of, you know, those sort of few factors and led to us starting. And then we didn't have the plan to start our own charity at all. We just thought we would go back to Egypt, set up a hospital for an existing Egyptian charity, and they could take over the running of it. But when we came back, we found that there was really nobody that was up to that. There was no. There was no charities that had experienced equine vets. There was no charities that actually knew anything about horses. So we. We realized in, okay, we have to actually stay and run this thing through, see it through ourselves. My, you know, then husband, as I say, he came back to Australia to register it as a charity back here in Australia. So it would be, you know, completely legitimate. And, yeah, it just went from there, and it's just, like, snowballed. And you say about me spending most of my time in Egypt, I actually do live in Egypt full time. I just come home to Australia to visit my family, try to come back once a year. [00:12:05] Speaker B: So you really have sacrificed, like, your entire life towards this goal. [00:12:10] Speaker C: We actually sold our family home so that we could fund it to start with, to get. To get the ball rolling. We had other investments, but, yeah, we sold the family home. [00:12:21] Speaker A: Wow. I mean, I just. Ben. Ben, for anyone listening to this and not watching it on YouTube and his mouth is slightly, like, open, and I don't know if we'll ever shut it again, because first of all, that huge credit to you and the sacrifices you've made, but secondly, having followed you on social media to the point that a lot of your social media gets blocked because it's quite harrowing to watch some of the cases, but just to do that mentally, to be strong enough to go, I can take this, this on, because I'm guessing there's been some push back over the years as well. I'm guessing it hasn't been just, oh, look, this nice lady's come along and she's going to help us with our horses. Yay. Yay, let's go. She's great. I'm guessing even in the beginning there was a few people going, excuse me, what, what are you doing now? [00:13:13] Speaker C: Yeah, there was a little bit of that, to be honest. It wasn't from the owners. The owners have always, you know, I mean, they won't always agree with what we want them to do, especially when it comes to euthanasia, and they still think that their traditional treatments work, even though we prove to them time and time again that they don't. But the pushback has been more, to be honest, I would have to say jealousy from, like, existing rescuers and things like that, that has caused a lot of trouble. People will go and report us. That happened very early on, report us to all sorts of, you know, the veterinary authorities or state security or whatever it's called, and, and we'll get visited and raided and all these sort of things. But we're completely registered and we're completely legitimate and, you know, we're totally above board with everything that we have to be, which has been, you know, a huge effort in itself because the red tape is amazing, especially when you don't speak the language. I have to rely on others to, you know, help me get all that sorted. So we're. We're completely, like, on track and covered by that. So it's never really been the owners so much. Sometimes the owners will complain about us to the vet board and we'll have visits from them and then we'll explain the case and what happened. And then, you know, they're. They're totally with us, they're totally grateful for what we're doing. The veterinary authority. And, yeah, no matter how many people kind of get jealous and send people to, you know, raid us, we're. We're fine. I mean, it sounds crazy. In Australia, imagine, or in. In any of our countries, you know, imagine that people would send authorities after you because you're giving free veterinary help. You know, it's just crazy. [00:14:55] Speaker A: It blows my mind. [00:14:56] Speaker B: I know people are petty. I've had competitors in this country try and call the council up on me just for what I do to try and get me stopped so I can believe it. People are petty and spiteful. [00:15:07] Speaker C: Yes. [00:15:08] Speaker B: When I just. Maybe I'm jumping the gun a bit. But I have to ask, when you're saying that sometimes you get pushback from the clients, I guess. I don't know, the people that you're helping. Like, does that come from a point of ignorance, or is that from. As awful as it sounds, a point of necessity? Because I imagine, like, I've never. I've never been to Egypt. I've never seen that. But I've worked out in India, and I've done Bollywood films and stuff with horses out there, and that was an experience. And I found that there were certain things that I said that upset me and I thought should be changed, and they just didn't even get. They were like, what? Really? And that was just ignorance. And I don't mean ignorance in an insulting way. I mean, I haven't crossed their mind. And other things where you're like, that horse shouldn't be doing that. And they're like, yeah, but that's how I feed my children. So it's gonna. And that's such a difficult. Like, how do you deal with that? How do you juggle that? [00:16:07] Speaker C: Yeah, we get exactly that, too. You know, it's. It's, as you say, ignorance. And we don't mean that in a mean way. It's. It's the true meaning of ignorance, as in these people have not been educated, and despite the fact that they will continue to tell us, But I've been around horses all my life, you know, and then we'll say, and how many of them have died? You know, So I think, you know, [00:16:30] Speaker A: I like your blunt way of speaking, Jill. This is excellent. [00:16:33] Speaker C: Yes, I'm very blunt. And. And, you know, it's probably lucky that I don't speak Arabic, so my vets have to interpret for me. So I. I'm pretty sure that they, you know, tone down everything I say. So. But, yeah, usually once we explain it to them, and. And, you know, we will still have people come in and refuse to give their horse a drink of water, which is our policy. Every horse comes in, they get a drink of water because they're already hot and sweaty and they've come a long way and they refuse. And they say, no, they'll get colic if you give them water. And then we have to tell them no, they'll get colic if you don't give them water. And. And still they won't believe the Egyptian vets. So often they will have to call me over, Jill, he won't give water. And then it has to be me there, you know, like yelling at them and saying, but these are all doctors. You're not a doctor. You know, I promise you yours won't die if you give it a drink of water. And. And then they say, oh, so we gave it a drink of water and it didn't die, you know, so, yeah, it's. It's really incredible, the mindset and the horrible barbaric traditional treatments. You know, we. We have such a trouble with that. We don't see it quite as much as we used to. But they do horrible firing. And to be honest, I think that they probably learned this during the war when. When, you know, the war horses were brought there from Australia, New Zealand, Europe, uk. And, you know, in those days, we did fire horses ourselves. In fact, I think it still goes on to a certain degree. So I think it was probably learned during that time. But then they've, like gone. I don't know what's the right word for it, but they don't just do a small pin firing on them. They're using thick metal rods and burning them in all sorts of places repeatedly and burning right through the full thickness of their skin. Skin. We just had one come in yesterday, which is very typical case with tetanus. And they believe the cure for tetanus is to fire them three times across the pole, twice against. Across the top of the tail and sometimes across on their nose. You know, this horrible. It's like a brand, you know, but. But they'll often hold it there longer to. To burn right through the thickness of the skin. One time we found a horse with a firing wound, and as it was healing, we actually got some bone out of that and burnt so far through onto the cannon bone that a bit of the bone had burnt and become necrotic and came out of the wound. But like I say, I think that was probably learned during the colonial times, during the war times, from. [00:19:00] Speaker A: Because the idea with firing isn't it is to try and make the tendons stronger, if I'm correct. Like, there's different ways of doing it, but that was the tradition. The way was to do it round the legs to kind of damage the tendon. So then it came back stronger. That was what I've been educated. But a lot of People would have even heard of it. [00:19:18] Speaker C: Yeah, I think that was the original English thinking was, was that it would somehow do that. I mean, that's obviously been proven completely wrong. It does it. It causes fiber. You know, what's the right word? Fibro. Anyway, fibrosis on tendons. And, you know, it just makes them worse, actually. So I think it's, you know, been, you know, dispelled by most sort of English people. But yeah, I hear that some horse trainers still use it. [00:19:45] Speaker A: So. [00:19:46] Speaker C: And that's one of the things, the other one, and I don't know where they would have got this idea from, but they thread string through the skin. So they, they make. Punch two holes through the skin and thread this. It's like a very coarse twine. It's made from the palm leaves and they thread that through and they think that's going to cure everything. I think their belief is that it. They wouldn't know the right terms, that inflammation brings inflammation, you know, to the area and bringing, you know, like, so the good cells to, to fight infection. But they think it's going to cure lameness. They think it's going to cure colic. You know, they just, they really have no clue what they're doing. Um, another one is bloodletting. They're still bloodletting. The horse gets laminitis and they, they cut the veins on the medial side of the forearms and drain some blood out. And then they, for some reason always sew it up with horse hair. And you know, the old sewing pins with the little colored bit on the ends, they, they like push those through and horse hair and sew it all together somehow like that, which you can imagine how filthy and contaminated that is. And, and you know, that can cause tetanus and then they can die from the tetanus. So. [00:20:57] Speaker A: Yeah, and I'm guessing this is, this is working horses. This is people who, who are trying to get these horses because essentially this is how they earn their. Their living. So you can. It's so hard, isn't it? Because it's that real balance between humanity and making sure that people can earn their living. And, and it gets me quite emotional, actually, and these. Seeing these animals as they're working animals there, but also a lot of the time people don't realize what. That they're doing wrong. And is that, is that correct that these animals are still very much working animals? And, and that's most of the majority of the injuries. And the problems that you see are them just keeping them going so they can do their job? [00:21:37] Speaker C: Yeah, yeah, they're, they're all working animals that we see occasionally we will see private horses too, because maybe an owner has already tried, you know, several vets and they've had no sort of success or no luck in the, or the horse is getting worse. So in that case we will also help some private, you know, just riding horses, jumping horses, whatever. But most, the majority is the working horses. So yes, they do need them to work, but they don't realize that all these traditional treatments that they're doing are going to lead to the death of the horse or at the minimum, it's going to lead to the horse being out of work longer than what it would have been if they brought it for, you know, proper veterinary care in the first place. And when we say working horses, you know, there is like the farmers horses and donkeys, which, you know, they're just pulling like a cart to the field and then they're pulling the produce back to home or back to the market or whatever. And they don't have too bad a life. Then there's the cart horses in the street. So they're pulling all sorts of things from bags of cement to steel rods to fruit and vegetables. But the worst is the tourist horses. So that's where the majority of the working horses are from and that's where the majority of injuries, illnesses, diseases are coming from. You know, those horses are just worked into the ground sometimes, like during Eid, for instance, it's a, it's a holiday, a four or five day holiday. So those horses can be worked 20 hours a day during the eat and they might already have, you know, like really bad feet or really, you know, already have injuries or already be emaciated. And you know, this is. So I find it very hard to justify the fact that these people just need to make a living and they need these animals to make their living. I can see it with the farmers and the car horses, but not the tourism industry because you know, those people are just totally greedy. They're not thinking of the horse at all. They're not thinking, oh, we'll look after this horse so that he will last, you know, and we'll have him for a long time. No, they're just out to make as much money as they can at the time. You know, there might be another customer around the corner. So they don't care about the horse and they can make as much money from one tip as what that horse is worth. Especially when they're using, you know, the emaciated wounded horses. You know, somebody from one of our countries would be used to paying, you know, minimum hundred dollars to go for a ride. So they might give $100 and that's what the horse is worth anyway. So [00:24:01] Speaker B: I can't get my head around if you turned up. [00:24:04] Speaker A: I know this is what my. You're about to ask exactly the same thing as me, Ben. I can tell it. [00:24:08] Speaker B: If me, Jenny or Simon were on holiday and for some bizarre reason lost our senses and decided to go and buck onto one of these things and we arrived and the horse looked like that, you just wouldn't get off. You won't get on. You wouldn't, you know. Yes, in fact, we're probably useless enough that we wouldn't get on, but we'd still pay the person because we thought they'd spend the money on the horse. That's probably what would happen. But how? Who are these is it. I can't even get my head around it. Like, they can't be people that ride, surely. [00:24:42] Speaker C: Unfortunately, sometimes it eats and. But those people will say things like, oh, but the one I rode was in good condition. But what they don't realize is that maybe he's in good condition now, but he's not going to stay that way for very long. Some people, but the majority of them are not horse people. I would have to say they're just people who saw a photo of somebody on a horse in front of the pyramids and thought they wanted to have that same photo opportunity. If you, if you go there, you will see most of them can't ride. You know, they're just hanging on for dear life, either on hanging onto the reins or hanging onto the front of the saddle and bouncing along, you know, and many, many of them fall off. Many horses fall and break their legs. But, you know, these people are out for their picture in front of the pyramids, their selfie, you know, I don't think they're bad people. I just think they don't know the first thing about horses. And when they got there, the horse wasn't, you know, what they probably hoped for. You know, it's not the black stallion from the movie, you know, it's this poor old bag of bones with the broken old saddle. But they still do it because that's what their plan was, you know, so that's one of the things that I try to do is to raise awareness. And, and I would have to say that that is working because you will rarely see now, you know, like on a travel group, if people are asking about riding it at the Pyramids. It would be very rare that people wouldn't comment and say, don't do it. The horses are treated terribly where, when I first started, nobody would be commenting like that. You know, they'd just be saying, yeah, it's great, you know, it's going to be a great photo, whatever. So. [00:26:16] Speaker A: Oh, I. I mean, I saw it when I was in Jordan and the majority, it was these tiny, tiny, little fragile horses being ridden by people and they just didn't want to walk somewhere a lot of the time, because especially in Jordan, there's a hike up to a monastery and it is a hike and it's bloody difficult to walk it with two legs, let alone four. And the number of people I just wanted to push off a donkey is extraordinary. And there is as well, tall companies, isn't there, that promote this. That's the problem as well. People from the uk, people from around the world who have a tour company and they actually promote the horse riding without actually the proper due diligence to make sure these horses. And then they're profiting of it. It's just. Oh, it makes me so angry. I'm sorry. [00:27:09] Speaker C: Yeah, you're right. That. That's definitely a thing too, is that the tour companies put that in as part of it. More often it will be a camel ride because they know that horses are more dangerous for, you know, non riders to go on the horses. So more often be a camel ride. But I have to say that's something that's changing as well. And I think at last count, there was about 50 tour companies that were not promoting them and refusing to, or to even organize it. There's a notorious place along the Nile river when you do the Nile cruise called Edfu, and that's very notorious with their horses and carriages. They say it's the only way to get off from the boat to the temple. And so these poor horses, also skinny and starved. And I have to say, it's another thing that they do. It's like a marketing thing that these men do. They keep their horses skinny and horrible so that you'll feel sorry for them. And then when you ask them, why is your horse so skinny? They'll say, oh, there's no money, there's no work. I have to feed my family. You know, it's lies. It's all lies. They do it on purpose so that you will go, oh, my God, you poor thing. Here's $300 to feed your horse, you know, And I learned that ployed very early on. So, yeah, anyway, so that place along the Nile, a lot of the tour companies actually started trying to hire taxis and then the, the horse people are a bit of a mafia. So they would stop the taxis coming down to the river. So then they tried bringing a tour bus and then they would stop the bus from coming. Then they tried just not stopping at that, that temple and then they managed to somehow block them from going up the river. You know, it's, it's like just an ongoing thing. But there definitely are a lot more. The more ethical tour operators are definitely not promoting it and refusing. And there's also a law that is a great lawyer in London who has a law firm, Duncan, I can't, sorry, remember his last name or the name of his law firm, but he has just about got a law passed where it will be illegal for travel agencies to advertise anything to do with animals that has a poor animal welfare outcome. So. And they're going to base that on if it would be illegal in the uk, then you can't promote it in your, in your tours. So we're really looking forward to that law coming out. And I think the tour companies that are not promoting it, I think that they've wised up to this new law that's going to be coming out too. [00:29:36] Speaker A: Oh. Oh, sorry. Go, Ben. [00:29:41] Speaker B: What are the most common injuries? Like the bloody treatments that they use sound worse than most injuries I think I've ever seen a horse have. I mean, I had my. On Friday. It will be a year since I had my ACL reattached in surgery. If my surgeon had suggested that we just give me third degree burns around my knee instead of fixing it, like, what on earth? But like, what is it? Is it blown tendons? Is it like backs trashed from badly fitting saddles? Like, what's the most sort of common injury? [00:30:13] Speaker C: We really should count up the statistics because we do, you know, keep quite comprehensive paperwork on every patient. But I guess we would see the, the majority of the cases would be wounds. And I'm not just talking small wounds or just a fresh cut that needs some sutures. I'm talking, you know, like humongous wounds. Like, you know, this big, like the entire wither is a wound kind of thing. And down the back and the leg. Yeah. And they're putting saddles on top of that. So wounds probably would be the most common thing that we see then, all sorts of blame. Surprisingly, we don't see as much tendinitis as we should. Like, I doubt that there's a donkey in Egypt without Tendinitis and the horses, I think it may be more of a case of they will still keep working them because just because they're lame, they can still run, right? And they can still carry somebody even if they're completely lame. You know, that doesn't really matter to the owners. And they know that tendons don't really get, you know, better in a week, so they don't want to leave the horse for three months to recover. So I think that it's not that there's not a lot of tendinitis. I think it's just that they don't bring them to us so much. We see an awful lot of broken legs. We see, you know, a lot of vets will, because with cattle you can use the same needle over and over and they generally won't get infected from that. But that you can't do that with horses. They're much more sensitive. So we see an awful lot of huge neck abscesses caused by dirty injections from outside vets because, you know, they will just inject vitamins or something that shouldn't be injected into the muscle or they miss the vein when they're trying to do an intravenous. So we see an awful lot of that. We see tetanus, quite a lot of tetanus. It's. There would never be a week that we wouldn't have at least one tetanus case. We've had up to about, I think 6 was the most that we had. We see a lot of respiratory diseases, you know, strangles, pneumonia. There's been a really severe case of, you know, strain of pneumonia this year that's been killing horses if they don't get treatment very quickly. We do see rabies occasionally. That's actually from a clinical point of view, that's very interesting. But. Yeah, what else? [00:32:34] Speaker B: That's terrifying. That is terrifying because we don't get better from. No one gets better from rabies. [00:32:40] Speaker C: No, no, we have to put them to sleep. It's the only treatment. And that's. That's the one thing that most owners do agree with. They know that it's rabies, but if we are only suspecting rabies, they won't agree. And so then we. We. One time we had a donkey come and we were pretty sure it was rabies. And we told the owner that it was and he wouldn't agree to put to sleep. So he said he wanted to take the donkey home. So we told him, look, just keep it separated, be very, very careful, don't let anybody go near it. And if it gets worse by tomorrow, bring it back and you'll see, you know, that it is rabies. So he straight away just handed the lead rope to his little boy, who was about 4, and let the little boy start to lead the donkey. So then I was like, ah, no, can't do that. So, you know, we, we offered to look after the donkey and he can come and check it every day and see if we're right or not, which we were. And by the next day he agreed that we could put it to sleep. But, you know, this is. That was really scary to think that he was, after what we just told him, just handed the rope to his little boy. You know, children were. [00:33:40] Speaker A: What is it, rabies? And a horse even look like. I just don't even. Obviously I've seen what's the awful film when you were a kid. The dog gets it and they have to shoot it. That's my only kind of. My knowledge of rabies is based on Hollywood and the fact that we have bats here with rabies in Canada, which wears me up. But yeah. How do you know if a horse has rabies or a donkey even? [00:34:07] Speaker C: Well, it's a bit scary really, because it usually presents as colic originally. Okay, so it's been a bit scary when we realized we've been treating a horse for colic. And the next day we find that it's more obvious that it's rabies. So they will, like I said, they usually present with colic. Then they'll start to become a bit like paralyzed in the back end. You know, the neurological signs start to show. So they start to get, you know, wobbly in the back end. So by then we, we realize and we put them into quarantine to be sure. And then they'll just start biting things. You know, they, they say that it's the water that you can. If they can't drink, then it's rabies. But if they can still drink, it's not. But that's actually not true. They can still drink right up until fairly late stages. And eat. They will sometimes eat voraciously, you know, to start with. So that's not always a sign, like they say. So, yeah, they get this paralysis, then they start biting at things and then they just, you know, deteriorate from there. By that point we know, and we put them to sleep. So. But there is, that's, there's like different forms. And the dangerous one is what they call furious form or furious stage something. And that is when the horse is absolutely Crazy. And he will just attack anything and everybody that comes near him. And when they get to that stage, we cannot even euthanize them. We have to leave them locked in a secure box and they have to, you know, pass away on their own, which is horrible to see. But I think from what I see of the animals, it seems to me that their mind is gone, so they're not feeling anything, really. They don't know what it is. But it's extremely distressing to see that furious form because they're just. They look so distressed. It's horrible. It's really horrible. [00:35:52] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:35:54] Speaker C: In the donkeys, it manifests differently. In the donkeys, they, again, might present, like, polyc. And then they might become a bit neurologic, but they actually start to bite themselves. And the horses will bite themselves too, but not like the donkeys. Donkeys will actually start biting at their own genitals. And we've had donkeys actually shred their penises and castrate themselves. They're biting so much. And it's incredible that they would just stand there looking so sweet. They don't even have a pained face, they're just looking sweet. Their ears are forward. You know, if you come up to them like this, you think, oh, he's a sweet donkey. And then you realize that his penis is shredded and his testicles are gone and. And his blood everywhere. You know, it's really bizarre in donkeys. So from a veterinary point of view, you know, it's a very good place to get experience. You know, [00:36:45] Speaker A: I think for me, this is the thing. So I would be like, no, I'm keeping them all. I'm not giving them back. You've treated it horribly, quite frankly. You can fuck off if you think you're having your horse back. Sorry. [00:37:00] Speaker B: You'd punch everyone, Jenny, if you were there, you'd be like, first thing, punch the owner. Right, carry on. [00:37:06] Speaker C: I've said that a few times. [00:37:08] Speaker A: Yeah. And the kindest thing might be like, put them to sleep. And I remember having this conversation with Kate, so I was like, why do you not just put them all to sleep if they're that bad? Like, what. What is it that, like, first of all, how was that to get your head around the fact you, you've got to give these horses back, you've got to fix them, because, like you say, you don't buy them. And. And where's the reasoning on that come from? And the. And the reason behind why it's not like. Because you don't just put them to sleep. It is you do fix them and give them back a lot of the time. [00:37:36] Speaker B: Can I take a guess? Can I take a guess? [00:37:39] Speaker A: Okay. [00:37:40] Speaker B: They can't buy them because if I was an evil asshole, I'd buy cheap horses, lock them in a shed with no food, burn them a bit, and then I could earn cash by selling them to the charity. All I've got to do is provide a stream of beaten up animals and the charity will keep buying them from me. Is that right? [00:38:00] Speaker C: Exactly, Ben, you can go to the top of the class. You got it straight away. Damn you, Ben. That's exactly right. [00:38:06] Speaker A: I just want to love them and keep them all. Yeah, sell my house, I'll sell my children. [00:38:12] Speaker C: Look, I do, I feel exactly the same. But you know, we have, like I say, about three or 4,000 patients a year, so it'd be impossible to keep them all anyway, you know, as you know, the, the buying is the cheap part. But we also have this big problem, as Ben said. And this has happened with. A number of people have moved to Egypt for exactly this reason because, I mean, sometimes they just want to get their own fame. They're not registered as anything, they're just pocketing money. So they need donations. So they get that by saying they want to buy this, you know, poor mistreated horse. And I've seen that actually it's the dealers are bringing horses to them that have been injured, beaten up. We had a terrible case of a rescuer we were helping. We will always help anybody that rescues a horse and gives them free treatment. And he was just bringing horse after horse with broken tibias. So. And I was like, after about the second one, I was like, I hope they're not doing. Or the third one, I said, I hope they're not doing this on purpose so you'll buy them. And I could see that the light bulb came on in his head at the same time and went, oh, right. You know, and at that time I didn't even know that this person was actually paying for horses. I had started to think he probably was. And when I said that, he didn't bring another one with a broken tibia. So I'm pretty sure, you know, I know that people will injure them on purpose, like in the same way that they will starve them so that they can beg for money. You know, that happens in other countries too. I saw a picture in China where people had cut off camel's legs that they could use it to be. Is that a cat or a kid? It's a kid. Hello. [00:39:54] Speaker A: Hey, Wild. He said, hi, Daddy, Daddy's fixing the world wild. How hard has that been for you, mentally and personally? How many times have you sat in a dark room trying to not bang your head against a wall because you must have been on such a learning journey and an emotional roller coaster? How many times have you been close to quitting? How has this been for you? I want to give you a hug, Jill. [00:40:27] Speaker C: It's honestly, it's not that sort of thing that makes me want to quit. You know, I'm pretty tough. Like, I was a farm girl, you know, in the early days, and then I was a pathology nurse for many years. So, you know, I'm pretty tough. Anyway, like, in the first couple of years, it was very, very hard. And I had many fights with owners, and I still do, you know, if they've been purposely mistreating their horse or they're refusing our treatment or whatever. I've stood in front of cars and not let them go. I've actually thrown things at an owner once because he hit his horse over the head, you know, but, you know, at the end of the day, what can I do? If I give up, you know, all of these horses are going to suffer. And, you know, over the years, we've helped thousands and thousands of horses. So, yeah, it's just. It's the desensitization. And I yell a lot. I yell a lot. And I swear a lot at them because they don't understand what I'm saying, so I can get away with it. You know, sometimes they'll be a bit offended, you know, too bad. I don't care. And sometimes I have actually confiscated animals and not let them take them back and, you know, just like, fought with them. I mean, we have 25 staff, and when we start having a fight with an owner, all the staff come, you know, and it's like, you know, okay, you want to. You want to come against all of us or you're going to leave and leave this poor animal, you know, And a lot of the time that'll be because it's got a broken leg or something and we need to put it to sleep and they want to take it away. And which is another thing, actually, with buying them, Ben, is what's happened now is they'll bring a horse that's say, got a broken leg, and we say, it needs to be put to sleep. There's nothing can be done. They'll say, no, we're going to take it away because somebody will give us some money for it. So there's you know, a few charities which will pay them. So off sail, trundle, like, thankfully, one of them's not very far away. So, you know, it's only, you know, 200 meters away from us where they will give them some money for them. So if they're going there, we say, okay, you can go there. Because the horses are usually tied down on the back of a cart. Anyone. Broken leg. But yeah, this is. This is, you know, it's all part of our no buy policies. All these reasons. We. We had a horse once. They wanted to go to a charity all the way downtown, which gives us a small compensation, but in those days, they were the only ones doing it. So they wanted to take this horse all the way there on the back of a truck, which is 20, 30 kilometers with a broken leg, standing on the back of a truck just to get the tiny compensation that it was in those days, you know, so. But now it's. People are paying ridiculous money, you know, because they come from their own countries where horses are worth a lot more and they just throw money at these people and yeah, it's. It's just. It's really detrimental. [00:43:08] Speaker B: Do you have success stories? [00:43:10] Speaker A: That's exactly the question I was just about to ask. Do you? Have you got any to heart? Because it feels a little bit like, why? [00:43:17] Speaker C: No, it's all doom and gloomy. I don't see how they can be. Because, like, even if you took the [00:43:26] Speaker B: animal fixed and they take it away, have they learned anything? [00:43:30] Speaker C: I know, that's terrible, isn't it, Ben? That's the thing, you know, but so even though we have medically, we have a lot of great success, you know, all we can say is that the success is that we are making these animals, you know, not be in pain anymore so they can go back to doing their job, you know, But, I mean, success would be that the owner falls in love with their own horse and lets them retire or something, but that never happens. There's no space for a start. But, you know, medically, we have a lot of success. We had one just recently, a donkey that came with a horrible big tumor on its eye. And our head vet, Dr. Sandy, managed to remove that tumor. And now the. The donkey's sight is restored. He can see perfectly. He's not in pain. He has this horrible thing hanging off his eye, but he has to go back to work. So, you know, but imagine him working with that. So that's all we can call a success, you know, and we have success with the rescues, of course, that people bring to us, you know, we can fix them and they can retire and have a lovely life. We've just recently had two babies born to two of the horses that were rescued. They were already pregnant when they came. So, you know, and that's lovely that. To think that those foals are born into a life where they're not going to be working in the streets because we never re home. We don't sell them, we don't re home. And we tried to do that. We thought we would do the three Rs, you know, the rescue, rehabilitate re home. But every single case we had to confiscate them back. They weren't even going to working homes, they were mostly going to foreigners. But then the foreigners get hooked up with, you know, a local boyfriend and then everything goes. Turns bad. So we've had to like, you know, take back forcibly sometimes just about. I think there's two that were success stories, so we just don't try and rehome them anymore. Except we have. Oh, here's a good story for you, Ben. There's. There's a psychiatric hospital where some of our rescue horses have gone to live there. And they're therapy horses. So they're living therapy horses. Yeah, they're the first living therapy horses in the Middle East. So they have. She originally took four horses and two donkeys and then since then, few of them have passed away. Like as one passes away, we replace and then, so I think three have died, but from, you know, natural causes or old age. And then we've replaced them. So they still have. I think she has six horses now and the two donkeys and having a great success story curse. [00:46:04] Speaker B: Get another random question you mentioned, Sorry, slightly unrelated but related. Going back, you mentioned laminitis. I see a laminitis risk where I am, especially at the moment since it's raining and the sun's out and the grass is going mad. How, how do we get emaciated laminitis? [00:46:25] Speaker C: Yeah, that's. A lot of people say that, especially ones from uk. Only the pack horses get laminitis. But unfortunately what happens is that these horses are worked all day with no food, no water, and then when they bring them home at the end of the day, they give them water and they give them 8 kilos of corn and beans. So the corn and beans, you know, it sets up like a toxic reaction in the gut when it starts to ferment. And I mean, I can't remember all the mechanisms of how the lemonitis works now, but it's Basically the same as having too much sugar from sugary grass, you know, but it's, it's this 8 kilos of corn and beans all at once with. Beans should never even be fed to a horse anyway. And you know, it starts fermenting in the gut and creating all this sugar and it's the same thing. [00:47:15] Speaker A: But like, I can just see. I've never known Ben's jaw never to shut for an entire episode before. [00:47:21] Speaker B: I'm just traumatized. [00:47:23] Speaker A: And one of the things we speak about on the podcast quite a lot and, and I am very lucky in, in the fact that I work at, I mean, I've just come back from Spruce Meadows and I've worked on the Global Champions Tour and I've worked at Hickstead and Aachen and all these amazing places. And at the moment there is a lot of, with the social licensing and the horse world and everyone's with certain things that are being highlighted with what riders have done wrong. And one of the things that Ben has very eloquently said, and I have not said rather ineloquently, is yes, these horses have these riders that might not be riding them at their best, but fundamentally these top riders still have these horses in absolute luxury. And I just wish that some of the people who take their time to chase and video and come after these top riders and analyze and the hours they spend on fucking Facebook ripping people apart. I just wish some of that energy could come to you, Jill. Some of that energy that they spend on hours like the woman who wrote a three page documentary on while Charles Owen has closed down. Complete misinformation. Why couldn't she have spent some time going, oh, why don't I give my social media skills to Jill for free and highlight your plight? Do you know what I mean? Like, this is one of our things that I hope we can do with this podcast day is highlight what's. What's going on for these horses and donkeys. Because the horses at the top of the sport, they're having a lovely time, guys. I know obviously it's. The riders should be riding brilliantly and beautifully all the time, but if we could just spend some energy highlighting what you guys are doing, wouldn't that be like a better way to be spending our time? I just, it just infuriates me. [00:49:12] Speaker B: Yeah, I think also I would say it sort of comes, it's sort of similar to like in a human world, even a top competition horse might be kept in a way that we would say is bad for a horse's physical health. In a certain way, but more mental health. Maybe they're stalled all the time, maybe they don't have interaction, that sort of thing. But I think it sort of shows in a weird way to say it this way, like what a privileged position we are in in America, in the uk, in Canada and Australia, that we're thinking about equine, like mental health and training. [00:49:45] Speaker C: Yeah, exactly. [00:49:46] Speaker B: Opposed to, you know, like it. Because it's. It just is. This is such lower hanging fruit. And like Jenny, I agree massively like this. If you really care about equine welfare, there are like more. [00:50:00] Speaker A: Jill really cares about equine welfare. Jill, this lady here, she really cares about equine. She has you. Have you. You are not just sitting being a keyboard warrior, you are the complete opposite of that. [00:50:13] Speaker B: Imagine like, remember a few. [00:50:14] Speaker C: Was it a couple of years ago? [00:50:16] Speaker B: I'm not naming names because it's in the past now, but a famous rider was seen using a tree branch to try and get a pony to go into a water jump and everyone was lost their mind. Can you imagine if you had videos of people giving horses third degree burns on the poll, the dock and the nose because it had colic like that. You can't even. It's almost, it's like you say it's almost too horrific. Like Jenny was saying, the social media blocks your posts from people seeing them because of how horrific they are. That is the level of abuse. [00:50:48] Speaker C: Yeah, it's just, you know, like, it's okay. It's not nice that these riders hit their horse or whatever. And I still don't like the whips that are used in racing. I think that's just over the top. But even when I see like the RSPCA has seized, you know, these emaciated horses and I look at them, I'll go, they're fine. You know, like in Egypt they would be a working horse, you know, and they're not that bad, you know. Yeah, they're a little bit, you know, maybe a few ribs showing, but they're really not that bad. You know, like, it just totally changes your concept of what's good and what's bad when you live here. But, you know, I see horses, the whipping is just unbelievable. We see constantly horses eyes are injured because the whips, as they whip around like this, the end flicks and flicks around into their eye. They have blinkers, but the last bit flicks around their legs. Just whip marks all around their legs and their testicles. Sorry, if I'm talking loud, I get a bit upset. About this stuff. And, you know, I've seen horses, when they go down, when they're pulling the carriage and they fall down because they just can't do it anymore, or they fall over a rock or whatever, the owners will smash them across the head. Like just anything with their whips to make them get up without them having to lift a finger to unhook the cart or anything else. You know, they. They just. They smash them, really. It's not just, you know, a few taps with a crop. It's. It's horrific, really. There's a thing that they do, which we see a lot of videos, where they. They do something to the cart so it actually can't move. You know, like they tie the wheels or something and then they're whipping the horse to make it pull. I think they always do this when there's a big crowd around them. I think they do it as a. As a. Look how strong my horse is. He'll still try even when he can't pull it. And they whip and whip and whip those horses across the head anywhere and just. And they're down, they're falling down onto their knees. They, you know, can see their legs are just buckling under the weight. They just. They can't budge this thing and they're still whipping them to make them try. And everybody's laughing and cheering and, you know, it's just. It's hell. It really is hell for animals. It's unbelievable. [00:52:56] Speaker A: Wouldn't it be nice if some of these riders who've been given these fines and so, oh, you can't compete for six months because you beat your horse. Wouldn't it be nice if their actual punishment was, go and work with Jill for six months? Your social media's got 100,000 followers. Go and use that and do some good. Or take it upon themselves. [00:53:16] Speaker B: That's not a bad shout. That's an amazing idea. [00:53:19] Speaker A: But. Or just have a conscience and take it upon yourself if you've been like, learn and go and do something good. Make good out of the bad. Take. Put your. Oh, I don't know. I just. I think there's. And. And we have to talk as well, Jill, because I love the sport and I love. I love it. I love. I love these horses and I know they love doing stuff. And the Longines Global Champions Tour is coming to Cairo, so it's going to be under the pyramids. Now, I have worked on the Longines Global Champions Tour, and one of the attractions of it is it builds these monumental arenas under the eiffel Tower or Monaco and I've worked quite a few of them and it's coming to Cairo, which for me I was like, when I first heard, I was like, hurrah. They can do some good here. They can bring some of this bucket loads of cash that they have and, and come and help people like you. Jill, am I correct and is this a very naive way of me thinking is this going to be a good for you or is this going to be a kind of like they send up a flare and stop looking at you guys is, oh, I don't, my tiny brain can't get around it. [00:54:33] Speaker C: I think it's going to be good for the horses because already, you know, because they have been getting information from, from friends and so they have been putting pressure on, so they've been pressurizing the government to actually do something for the horses in the pyramid area. So they've been making a lot of announcements and they did do a video not long ago that they have started to microchip the horses and give them vaccine against, I'm not sure, a couple of diseases anyway, not tetanus for some reason, even though that's one of the most common things. But yeah, I think, you know, equine influenza and herpes, something like that. So, you know, it is, it is helping to put a spotlight on them. But I just worry that it will just be all show and once the show's over, then everything's going to go back to how it was always just going to be pushed aside and hidden under the carpet kind of thing. For instance, there was always huge mounds of garbage in the streets and then the dead horses were always dumped there. All the horses that were dying were dumped there to die. And, and that now is being cleaned up on a daily basis. And I'm sure that's pressure from Longines that is, that has got that happening, you know, not that that helps the horses, they still die, they still get dumped somewhere. But yeah, I think, I think it will help to put some spotlight on what's happening. But it's so ironic that, you know, this side of the fence because there's a big wall around the pyramid. So this side is going to be these beautiful show jumping horses that are so well looked after and on this side is going to be these poor, starved, skinny horses. The government has now told people that they're not to keep their horses tied up to the fence. They're moving them on, they're painting the fence, they're planting gardens and things like that. But you Know, the problem is, where are those horses? They're being sent to a stable that the government's built for them, which is at least they're out of the sun. They're not just tied up to the wall all day, but they're kind of out of sight, out of mind. And we're seeing some pretty awful things, things happening there, but no different to what happened, you know, in the street before. So, yeah, I'm just hoping that they will help raise awareness with this. Another thing I don't understand is I would not want to bring my horse to that area. You know, this, which is why they're doing the vaccines, I guess. But there's so much. I mean, if you want to create disease, as we know, you put a lot of animals in a small area, like all this intensive farming does, and, you know, disease just goes rife through these animals. So I wouldn't want to risk my own horse, to be honest. But, yeah, hopefully the government's trying to do something about that. But, you know, ticks and mosquitoes carry disease, don't they, so. And we have a lot of those. [00:57:14] Speaker A: I'll probably get in trouble for saying this, but wouldn't it be nice if everyone who bought a VIP table also spent the same amount buying you a new truck or buying some medical supplies or you're going full. [00:57:26] Speaker B: Jeremy Clarkson, did you hear about that? He held a charity event and they had a goal of like so many hundreds of thousands and they hadn't got to it and something like 15 people had arrived via helicopter. So we went after each of them and was like, if you can arrive after helicopter, you can put more money in the kit. [00:57:44] Speaker A: Well, there we go. Exactly, yeah. [00:57:47] Speaker B: And I think that's the obscene part, is that there is so much money in the sport and it would be cool if there could be some trickle down to like a bit like, I would say you see it on a more public scale with football. Like, if you're going to hold the World cup somewhere and build a massive stadium, you better help the people in that area. And I think if they want to use the landscape and the name to sell tickets and to build their event, it would be cool if a portion of a portion of profits or something could go towards these animals. Or like you say, Jenny, even, even just if the big named riders out there can try and do something with their own big, you know, their own followings to draw attention. [00:58:32] Speaker A: And I have started nagging a few, but I'm not gonna name any names because it's not fair. But I've been dropping a few suggestions when I was at Spruce Meadows. Benji, just been a few hints. [00:58:43] Speaker B: In a dream world. In a dream world, definitely not possible, I don't think. But you almost need a picture of a horse from Egypt stood with one of the competition horses and be like, look at the difference. Yeah, like, like you thought it looked skinny anyway, but look at them like, what is this? [00:59:01] Speaker C: Yeah, yeah, exactly. And I don't suppose they're going to ban the horses from coming into the pyramid area, but maybe they will only let the ones that are in better condition work to during that time, I don't know. But if they can do that during [00:59:15] Speaker B: the long jeans thing, why can't they do that all time? [00:59:21] Speaker C: Well, they're saying that they're going to do that, they're saying it. But the problem is it's not just inside the pyramid area either. They also work outside the pyramid area because people come there to ride a horse. So instead of going into the pyramid area, they ride on the outside of the wall. They can still go out to the desert in a different area and see the pyramids without going inside the pyramid area, if you know what I mean. So those horses, and this is a cycle of abuse that happens at the pyramid. So they start off coming from another area, Fayoum or somewhere, where they had a chance to grow a bit. So they come in, you know, strong and healthy and they work in that area because it's very hard work. You know, it's a big hill. They have to drive a carriage up this big hill. And so they don't last very long, they break down and they, you know, do this stupid feeding cycles and things. So when they break down, then they're just used on the outside of the wall for these cheaper rides and these crazy rides where people are just galloping in the desert in the dark, whatever, breaking legs, whatever, you know, and then when they break down from there, then they're sold again to, you know, people that pick up the garbage in the streets. So this horse then isn't fed at all. He has to forage for his feed in the garbage, which means that he consumes a lot of plastic. And that's another thing we see a lot in the hospital is colic and often caused by plastic impaction. So, you know, this is kind of the cycle of abuse and it all stems from the pyramid area. If the horses were not used in that area, I am 100% sure that we would see a huge reduction in the amount of horses being used in general, because that's why they're so cheap. You know, they're probably expensive to buy the good, strong, healthy ones to start with but once they start breaking down there value decreases, decreases, decreases, you know, so and getting back to the, the donors, you know, it's not anybody else's fault what's going on in Egypt, you know, so. But if people can afford it, we would love to have some help. And we are currently building a hospital. We did manage to buy our own land last year, so now we're building a hospital. So that because we currently are renting and you know, bring never last forever. So yeah, if anybody out there wanted to sponsor a box or something like that, we would love it. [01:01:30] Speaker A: Yeah. Okay. So our listeners, our listeners, you are a passionate, you are a lovely lot. What can we do to help Jill? So you just said so going onto your website, is there like direct us. What can we do to help? I want to help Jill. [01:01:45] Speaker C: Well, you can go onto our website and there's a special page for donation. It's got all the different ways we're registered charity in the UK as well as Australia. There's also a US dollar bank account that you can donate into, can use PayPal, all those sort of normal ways. But there's, you know, an awful lot of people that can't afford to donate money. So then in that case, we love that those people will go and make comments on travel sites. They'll write maybe to the tourism minister, you know, saying that they, you know how, how upset they are about this. They can just help by educating other people too. So, you know, there's always a place to help. [01:02:23] Speaker A: That's a great. Yeah, I hadn't even thought about that. And maybe annoying some riders into saying, come on, let's highlight some, give them a poke. Give these riders a poke, Come on. And if you see someone going on a rampage unnecessarily on social media about something that's really not necessarily maybe just drop into their comments. Well, why don't you put some of your energy into this charity instead? And also so if people. I will put all of the details of the website and everything in our episode description. [01:03:00] Speaker C: Guys. [01:03:00] Speaker A: So we'll put it on there. Also I've heard about you have an old Toyota truck that's 20 years old, that is your mode of transport and you're hoping to maybe upgrade. Upgrade on that as well. [01:03:10] Speaker C: Yeah, that we, we actually only purchased it last year. It's a, it's a four wheel drive so we use that for our mobile clinics and that was, you know, thanks to a lovely, generous donor that we have. She, she gave us that, sponsored that truck for us. And the reason we bought that one was because it was all decked out with the car fridge and some shelves and things so we could keep our medical supplies in there. But yeah, it's a lovely old Toyota and we can then go, you know, into the desert on the sand, you know, for it's a four wheel drive. So if a horse has broken its leg out in the desert, we can easily get out to it instead of making the poor thing walk back or whatever. So yeah, lovely. [01:03:50] Speaker A: Disagree. [01:03:50] Speaker C: We would love it if Toyota would sponsor a new car. [01:03:55] Speaker A: No one that's not 20 years old. Right, we need to get on them. Let's start annoying Toyota as well. Oh, so basically check out the website. I'll put all the links to it in the episode description. Like I say, just start. Yeah, like you say, go in the comments and, and just highlight what these horses are going through and just raising awareness. And we got to know you through our wonderful appetizer. Doesn't really go strong enough with us because we actually love Matt from Streams from Extra Streams bands. He put us in contact with you and I know you're a charity very close to his heart and anything we can do to help raise some awareness, Jill. But. Oh, I just, I want to give you a hug. You just seem like such an amazing person. How do you keep going? How do you keep doing it? [01:04:47] Speaker C: Well, like I said, I'm pretty tough but I'm very passionate about this. You know, I really do believe that we can make a change and that we'll see a change. I used to fundraise and I'm still in the group that fundraise for animals Asia, which was the bears that are in bear bile cages and their bile was being taken. And I've actually seen over the years that we've been helping with them the changes and this bear bile and bears being kept in cages, it's actually becoming illegal all over China and Vietnam. So because I've seen changes, I'm very, you know, I'm sure that we will see changes eventually in Egypt too. I mean it has to in, in, in England. I know that this same similar sort of scenarios. I mean you've all read the book of Black Beauty, right? And you know, it was similar scenarios back. What's that, 120 years ago or something. It has to change eventually. And you know, in Australia it was the same. We had working animals. I'm sure that they weren't treated as badly because probably we had them about when Australia was colonized was about, you know, when cars and tractors and things started coming in. But, you know, things do change eventually and that's what keeps me going. And I really want this to be something that goes on in the future, like, long after I'm gone. You know, the vets will always need somewhere to learn. The animals will always need help. Even if it's not working animals, you know, the vets will still always need somewhere to learn that has good policies and good principles, you know, so. And just. I just want to get back to Matt. I have to say when he sent me some bands to try on the horses and I'm. I'm yet to, you know, get back to the vets about what his help. But look, I'm wearing one. He sent one for me and I got one too. I had actually injured my shoulder. The dogs knocked me over at the start of the year and it was really badly injured and nothing was working to. To correct it. When I started wearing the band, within 24 hours, I would say it was 50% improved. And it's not supposed to even work that quick. And now it's almost. It's 90% improved now. So, yeah, big shout out to Matt with his bands. They're just brilliant. [01:06:56] Speaker A: Yeah, Matt from Equestrines, everyone. I mean, don't even get Ben started on the bands. He's like, if it moves in his house, it wears a band. Yeah, my dogs have both got them on. Yeah, I'll put the discount code for Equestrian Streams. I'm sure that probably still works, Matt. We're putting your discount code in the description as well. Jill. Oh, have you got. Is there anything we haven't touched upon that you need to. Need to tell us? Because I don't want to let you go until I've got all the information to share with our listeners. [01:07:27] Speaker C: Yeah, I'm sure I'll think of something afterwards. Maybe I should have written some notes. I'm very good with that. But yeah, it's just, it's the whole thing of, you know, please stop using animals in your tourism holidays and that goes anywhere, you know, whether that's the horses in Egypt or the elephants in Asia, you know, or walking lions in [01:07:43] Speaker A: Africa, you know, we really need photos with tigers. Those tigers are not. Not living a good life, guys. However much they tell you. [01:07:51] Speaker C: Exactly. Yeah. So that goes for all animals. I mean, we can just get this out of our head that we don't need to have animals unless we're doing, you know, volunteering at an animal sanctuary or something or we're going to like an ethical animal refuge, you know, then, then that's another thing. You know, if you are just an animal lover and you want to be around animals, you know, you don't need to be going and riding and you know, doing all this sort of stuff. So walking with lions, I mean, I've been caught up in that myself, you know, until I was educated walking with lions and riding elephants because, oh, if we don't ride them, how they gonna, you know, buy their food? You know. Well, hello, if we don't ride them, they won't capture them out of the jungle in the first place. Yeah, it's, it's a very hard one to. Yeah, there's, there's that whole thing about not riding. I see a lot of people now are training horses to rear and this is in a very horrible way. They have these horrible dancing bits in Egypt that actually break their jaws so they yank on them to make the horse rear. And this is a new trend that I'm seeing on TikTok or whatever is that people sitting on a horse that's rearing, you know, like, oh yeah, I'm great, you got your photo. But you know, this horse is having to do this 100 times a day and it's not natural for a horse to do be doing this sort of thing. So you know, it's, it's not just oh, and then they'll say that the horse I rode was in good condition. Go and look at the conditions that this horse lives in, you know, and works in and, and then see what you think. So, yeah, I mean that's, that's the biggest thing. If we stop using them, the, the industry will, you know, be unnecessary. And it's not that we're going to put people out of their jobs. They have other jobs they can do. They, they have their motorbikes that they rent out, you know, they have the little four wheel dune buggies. I mean they're much more fun than a horse with to, you know, go across the sand dunes. They have their little gift shops, their trinket shops, their papyrus, their perfumes, all this sort of thing. Most of the people working in that area are either businessmen or they're working for the businessmen. So the workers can get a job in other parts of Egypt and the businessmen can do their other businesses. So it's not that we trying to take people's livelihoods off them. You know, it's like I say, the Other horses that have worked, the farmers and things, they do look after the horses a bit better. There's still the ignorance, you know, every horse in Egypt, just about. There's not many that actually live free in a paddock like. Like ours do. Most horses live tied up to the wall. Sometimes they're in a street. People will. Owners will bring their mares to us when they're due to foal because they live in the street. This horse tied up in the street, so if she gives birth there, tied up in the street, the foal is likely to get run over. So to help, you know, it's. It basically does stem from us tourists, you know, coming, you know, from other countries with all our money to spend, you know, like, go and spend it on something else. Take a balloon ride. There's a balloon at the pyramids now. You can go up in that. Yeah. [01:10:40] Speaker A: Go on a bloody balloon. Get off the ponies. Oh, it sounds so simple, doesn't it, Benji? I think you might have to go for some Botox after today, my love. [01:10:49] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:10:50] Speaker A: Lines forming on your forehead. Is there anything that you. You want to ask Jill before we let her go? Because it's very late now in Perth and I feel like I need to go and have a cry. [01:11:01] Speaker B: No. I think I'm completely traumatized for a while now. I just think, yeah, if you just. If you can do something to help this, do. Because it's just horrific and there's no excuse for it, really. Which is the. The most awful thing. Yeah. If you want to be cool. Want to be cool around the pyramids, going around a quad bike. [01:11:24] Speaker C: Yes. [01:11:25] Speaker B: No horse. [01:11:25] Speaker C: It's much more fun. [01:11:27] Speaker A: Yeah. And we all know people who go on holiday to Egypt just be that asshole that goes, do you know what? I will not be your friend anymore if I see a picture of you on a horse. Don't do it. Be outspoken. Speak up for the ponies, guys. Yeah. If we can share that. [01:11:42] Speaker C: Yeah. [01:11:42] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:11:43] Speaker C: Oh, and another thing is that if there's any experienced equine vets listening that could come and help us, you know, that's always lovely that our senior vets can have, you know, a higher standard of training with those. With those experienced vets and then people that have horse experience, that are vets, you know, but maybe they've just graduated. As long as they have some horse experience, you know, we welcome them to come and help as well. And we also run, we do farrier training and farrier apprenticeships that we have, because the farrier work is another Big problem in Egypt. So we do that and we have a dentist that. We had a UK dentist come out and he fundraised for the electric dental equipment and he taught our guys and one of them in particular picked it up so well. Mahmoud. And so we have our own little dentist. So if there's any, you know, equine dentists, farriers, vets that would like to come out and help us, we would be very grateful to. [01:12:39] Speaker A: Amazing. And I'm guessing that's even if they just come for a couple of weeks, help do some education and, and come and see it and. Yeah, that would be amazing. Imagine we. Something came like that from this, guys, Come on, spread the love. Spread the love. So don't forget to check out Egypt equine aid, guys, because there's, there's a lot of people out there. But this is. Head to Jill's website. I'll put all the details in the episode. Episode description. Lovely, Jill, thank you so much because I know how busy you are. I really hope that this, this our listeners get out there for you and start championing you because they are wonderful, our listeners. They're very funny as well. They're very, very funny. So you might get some funny messages from them. But I just. Thank you. I just, I don't know how else to say it, but thank you for being the person you are and for, for and for helping these animals feel quite emotional about it because people need more Jill. Be more Jill, guys. Be more Jill. Ben, is there anything you'd like to say before we say goodbye? [01:13:40] Speaker B: No, just if you can help, do help, like whether that's sharing stuff on socials, dissuading friends from being involved in the tourism industry involving animals. Or if you can donate, donate or if you have like you say those special skills and you can get out there for a bit, do it like it's, it does make a difference and that's what we all want. We want change for horse welfare. And this is some low hanging fruit to help with it. [01:14:11] Speaker A: Yeah, and share this podcast, guys, so we can get Jill's message far and wide. But Jill. Oh, it doesn't seem appropriate. We normally end the podcast with saying shut up and ride, but I feel like I want to say the opposite. Keep shouting, don't shut up, keep championing, don't ride. And just keep doing what you're doing for, for, for these horses and donkeys. And I know you do a bit with camels as well and, and just keep doing what you're doing. And thank you for being the person you are. And thank you so much for coming on the podcast. [01:14:43] Speaker C: Thank you. Thank you so much for having us. It's, you know, it's always helpful to spread awareness, so thank you so much. And, Ben, it was lovely to meet you, too. [01:14:52] Speaker B: Thank you very much. It's wonderful to meet you and hear all about your incredible life. [01:14:57] Speaker A: Thank you, guys. [01:14:59] Speaker C: Thank you.